Who's done better on transit? Vancouver or Toronto

[44 North]

Why would they include slow moving streetcars as rapid transit? That's a big joke.

It only includes St Clair and Spadina - "Rapid Streetcars" - in their definition of rapid transit. And from their list, it seems it'd be the lowest order of RT (even below BRT). From Pembina:

Rapid transit

Rapid transit represents the highest order of transit service. It is the backbone that moves the largest volume of riders and provides the greatest level of mobility, frequency and speed. Common rapid transit technologies include subways, light metros, light rail transit, right-of-way streetcars and right-of-way rapid buses.

For this report, the criteria below were used to identify transit infrastructure that meets the definition of rapid transit.1

1. Separated from traffic: Vehicles that either travel on a grade-separated path, or in their own lane or track that interacts with other traffic only at intersections or crossings. This makes them immune to traffic congestion.

2. Priority signalling: For LRT, BRT, rapid streetcars and some express buses, vehicles that are not grade-separated receive priority from traffic signals. This can be done through measures such as changing the length of traffic light phases. It ensures that they can move at a consistent frequency and are not held up by automobile traffic.

3. All-day, two-way service: Routes that provide regular service throughout the day, including within the city core. This differentiates them from regional commuter routes with peak-only service, or commuter service that skips over stops within the city itself.

4. Maximum wait of 10 minutes during peak times: The frequency of service in peak times is a critical factor for commuters. Rush hour commuters should not be waiting longer than 10 minutes, and ideally not more than five minutes, for a transit vehicle.

5. Maximum wait of 15 minutes during off-peak times: Fifteen minutes has been identified as frequent enough service that riders don’t have to plan their trip around a timetable.

6. Optimal spacing of stops and stations: Stops are spaced close enough for riders to walk to them, but far enough apart to keep vehicles moving. Vehicles stop less frequently than regular bus or streetcar service.2

7. Network connectivity: A rapid transit line needs to connect to a larger network, rather than terminate at, or merge into, non-rapid modes of transportation.

8. Off-board fare collection and platform-level boarding: The vehicle operator does not collect fares and passengers can step directly from a platform into the vehicle without using stairs. Both of these measures expedite boarding.

***

I'd like some to read what ssiguy wrote, and Pembina's definition of "Light Metro", and question why we're not seeing more of this type of system here. This system doesn't have to be linear induction, or only be manufactured by one company. It could use standard light rail rolling stock - just as the S(L)RT was to be rebuilt as. It's an optimal mode, and IMO would've worked very well in place of TYSSE. Underground, elevated, surface (but still grade-separated), etc. The thing would've taken half the time to build, cost half as much, and left enough time/funds/resources left over to start any number of projects.

Edit side rant: one thing that always bugged me is the well-known Council debate for the S(L)RT where Josh Matlow supposedly schooled Rob Ford - basically by saying that St Clair wasn't LRT, but the SRT rebuild was. I dunno, the way I see it is that St Clair is LRT (or at least extremely close to it). In my opinion it would've been more fitting for Matlow to say that the SRT rebuild is 100% a subway line (albeit one using light rail rolling stock). By saying the SLRT is an LRT line is unfairly lumping it into the same category as the FWLRT and SELRT, when really it's an entirely different class - one in the same strata as subways.

 

[aquateam]

So, I'm second-guessing some of the numbers that I posted from the Pembina institute, since a lot depends on the definition of what is "Vancouver" or what is "Toronto". The mode share numbers are census metropolitan areas so that should be a fair comparison, but the Pembina institute compares the Translink service area with the TTC service area.

So Vancouver gets an unfair comparison since they're having their suburbs included, whereas only Toronto proper is included in the Toronto numbers.

This chart (which, admittedly uses the not-so-great metric of passenger kilometers per capita) shows Metro Vancouver performing worse than Toronto proper but better than the GTHA.

I was also surprised to notice that the transit mode share in Vancouver jumped from 14.3% in 1996 to 19.7% in 2011 - a 37% increase in 15 years! Toronto's went from 22.0% to 23.3% in the same time period, which is only a 5.9% improvement.

That being said, the government is pretty disappointing in Vancouver. The major transport projects (bridges) that have been built are for auto traffic. Meanwhile in Ontario, the province is spending tens of billions on transit without hiding behind a referendum.

 

[mdrejhon]

What's important is the money for the next 10 years
Many of which now have shovels in the ground, or are about to.

UPX 2015
Full TTC Presto 2016
Vaughan Extension ~2016
Union Revitalization fully complete ~2017
Entire streetcar fleet replaced with LRT-like vehicles (~2020)
Finch West LRT 2021
Eglinton Crosstown LRT 2022
Hurontario LRT ~2022
GO Lakeshore East/West electricified ~2022-2025
GO Barrie electricified, ~2022-2025
GO Bramalea-Stoufville electricified, ~2022-2025, with possible "SmartTrack" airport spur
Half-dozen-plus new TTC-GO interchange stations, ~2022-2025
Sheppard East LRT ~2025

This does not even include unfunded or highly contentious projects such as Scarborough subway (funded, but contentious), as well as 407 Freight Bypass (study funded, frees corridors for expanded GO service such as Milton RER), potential high speed rail (EA funded), Downtown Relief Line (study funded), Yonge subway extension (study funded), all of which might actually become funded between now and the completion of the above projects.

Vancouver, what's your currently funded transit projects through 2025?

Also, Vancouver's commuter train system is almost a joke -- when compared to GO.

 

[WislaHD]

% of population within 1km of rapid transit:
Toronto: 34%
Vancouver: 19%

Winner: Toronto
This is a much better measure, since it shows if rapid transit gets people where they need to go and reaches where they are. The one caveat I'd give is that if a city has a good bus network it reduces the need to be within walking distance of a station.

This is an important distinction. Toronto's bus network is efficient and very very frequent - subway level frequent - on many many main roads. Toronto is actually continentally renown for serving its suburbs effectively with buses, and our bus system is studied continent-wide by planners.

Toronto's access to transit (rapid or not) is actually very very high, especially compared to the North American average.

----
btw, it always impresses me how well Canadian cities perform transit wise compared to American and Australian. Look at Calgary and Ottawa's figures in aquateam's last post compared to foreign cities!

 

[mrjun18]

What's important is the money for the next 10 years
Many of which now have shovels in the ground, or are about to.

UPX 2015
Full TTC Presto 2016
Vaughan Extension ~2016
Union Revitalization fully complete ~2017
Entire streetcar fleet replaced with LRT-like vehicles (~2020)
Finch West LRT 2021
Eglinton Crosstown LRT 2022
Hurontario LRT ~2022
GO Lakeshore East/West electricified ~2022-2025
GO Barrie electricified, ~2022-2025
GO Bramalea-Stoufville electricified, ~2022-2025, with possible "SmartTrack" airport spur
Half-dozen-plus new TTC-GO interchange stations, ~2022-2025
Sheppard East LRT ~2025

This does not even include unfunded or highly contentious projects such as Scarborough subway (funded, but contentious), as well as 407 Freight Bypass (study funded, frees corridors for expanded GO service such as Milton RER), potential high speed rail (EA funded), Downtown Relief Line (study funded), Yonge subway extension (study funded), all of which might actually become funded between now and the completion of the above projects.

Vancouver, what's your currently funded transit projects through 2025?

Also, Vancouver's commuter train system is almost a joke -- when compared to GO.

Excellent post. Don't forget:

• Construction of the Leslie barns facility.
• Automatic train control (2019?)
• The new ttc trains (hold 10% more people)
• Mississauga transitway brt
• Vivanext brt
• New Hamilton go train station
• New GO trains (ordered already)
• WiFi added on the TTC

And there's more.

 

[ssiguy2]

Those figures seem a little out of date. Translink ridership has basically flat lined in the last 3 years and Calgary has overtaken Vancouver is per-capita ridership.

 

[mdrejhon]

Toronto's access to transit (rapid or not) is actually very very high, especially compared to the North American average

And, yet, here we are, demanding even more. More! More! Toronto is frantically clogging the pipleline buffer chock full of pending rapid transit projects. They have been a primary political issue for the last generation.

Only now we are finally seeing a few things start to pop out of the pipeline, and the pace will quicken over the coming decade after two decades of near stagnation after the Eglinton/Sheppard subway cancellations of the early 90s. (Somebody hire a ribbon cutter! Emerging job of the future!)

Vancouver is going to go "huh?" when even a mere half of the funded projects actually make it to completion. And "omg" when more is approved and/or completeed by then. And later, maybe even "omfg" if we actually get the high speed commuter rail approved and other niceties like DRL funding.

Vancouver risks entering a two decade transit stagnation like we did. Don't do that mistake, Vancouver.

 

[doady]

The idea of "rapid transit" is more about the capacity of the line, isn't it? It's not about speed.

For example, if a line is not grade-separated, the length of the trains and the frequency of the trains is limited. So the capacity is much less.

If it was just speed, then GO Trains would be rapid transit. But you can see GO moving in that direction with grade-separations and increasing frequencies. I think once Lakeshore has 15 minute frequency all day in both directions it can be considered rapid transit.

In terms of capacity, the streetcar can be consider rapid transit to some degree. The 510 Spadina has a massive ridership for such a short line (the 510 Spadina carries more riders per km than the Skytrain system). Consider the new, longer streetcars and all-door boardings, and implement signal priority, and it has even more rapid transit qualities.

"Rapid transit" isn't some binary value, I don't think. Like a 10 point scale, maybe streetcar ROW is 5/10 or something. Skytrain maybe 7/10. GO Lakeshore 7/10. TTC subway 8.5/10.

That's why I think comparing cities in terms of kilometres of "rapid transit" doesn't make much sense.

 

[ehlow]

What's important is the money for the next 10 years
Many of which now have shovels in the ground, or are about to.

UPX 2015
Full TTC Presto 2016
Vaughan Extension ~2016
Union Revitalization fully complete ~2017
Entire streetcar fleet replaced with LRT-like vehicles (~2020)
Finch West LRT 2021
Eglinton Crosstown LRT 2022
Hurontario LRT ~2022
GO Lakeshore East/West electricified ~2022-2025
GO Barrie electricified, ~2022-2025
GO Bramalea-Stoufville electricified, ~2022-2025, with possible "SmartTrack" airport spur
Half-dozen-plus new TTC-GO interchange stations, ~2022-2025
Sheppard East LRT ~2025

This does not even include unfunded or highly contentious projects such as Scarborough subway (funded, but contentious), as well as 407 Freight Bypass (study funded, frees corridors for expanded GO service such as Milton RER), potential high speed rail (EA funded), Downtown Relief Line (study funded), Yonge subway extension (study funded), all of which might actually become funded between now and the completion of the above projects.

Vancouver, what's your currently funded transit projects through 2025?

Also, Vancouver's commuter train system is almost a joke -- when compared to GO.

Increases in GO service that will happen much earlier than electrification should make a big impact. Like when Georgetown goes all day two way every 30 min like Lakeshore is. Off-peak and all day service is a huge difference, whether diesel or electric. Lakeshore GO lines had a big boost of ridership when that happened.

I'm hoping the spread of POP, Presto & all door boarding helps bus & streetcar routes over the next couple of years. I'm also hoping the continued maintenance/signal/track work improves subway service reliability.

 

[ssiguy2]

Vancouver is not exactly standing still you know.

The Evergreen Line is well more than half done and will open next year. It is an 11 km grade separated line {that's more than Toronto has built in a generation} SkyTrain line to be interlined with the M-Line.

This has not brought transit expansion in Vancouver to a halt. What it has done is make our local politicians do their jobs and raise the money thru current options. This plebiscite wasn't even need nor wanted by the populace but was rather politically advantageous for our local politicians. It was Vancouver's take on the Greek Referendum.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Meanwhile Toronto has ECLRT, TYSSE, SSE and soon YN and DRL. Then there are the LRTs and RER.

Vancouver may be expanding, but theyre still incomparable to what Toronto is going through. I'm pretty sure Toronto has more active RT expansion than anywhere on this side of the world.

 

[nfitz]

Vancouver is not exactly standing still you know.

The Evergreen Line is well more than half done and will open next year. It is an 11 km grade separated line {that's more than Toronto has built in a generation}

It's not a generation since the Sheppard Line opened .

Though, yes - Vancouver is indeed building 6 more stations (none of which are in Vancouver ... it's all very suburban). But what else? Toronto alone has over 20 underground stations underway. Not to mention all sorts of suburban projects in the other cities.

 

[44 North]

Here's some pics I copied from over at the Evergreen Line thread:

From Evergreen Facebook:

Lafarge Lake - Douglas Station

https://www.facebook.com/evergreenline

Lincoln Station

It's beautiful. This type of system should've been what was built to York U and Vaughan SmartCentre Centre. No, not as proprietary Skytrain. It could've very well been the same setup as the S(L)RT plans (i.e straight up LRT). We'd have saved a bundle, and knocked 5yrs off the construction time (plus saved manpower, resources, and op costs in perpetuity) . What's that? Elevated is ugly you say? Have you ever been to Keele/Finch, or Hwy 7/Jane? It's already ugly...I mean really, those areas couldn't get any uglier. A well-landscaped concrete guideway would only improve the streetscape. And as is evident in Vancouver, and here in TO (where we already have a significant amount of elevated transportation structures), it simply would not prevent development. And the best part is: it's still a subway.

 

[snowystar]

What's important is the money for the next 10 years
Many of which now have shovels in the ground, or are about to.

UPX 2015
Full TTC Presto 2016
Vaughan Extension ~2016
Union Revitalization fully complete ~2017
Entire streetcar fleet replaced with LRT-like vehicles (~2020)
Finch West LRT 2021
Eglinton Crosstown LRT 2022
Hurontario LRT ~2022
GO Lakeshore East/West electricified ~2022-2025
GO Barrie electricified, ~2022-2025
GO Bramalea-Stoufville electricified, ~2022-2025, with possible "SmartTrack" airport spur
Half-dozen-plus new TTC-GO interchange stations, ~2022-2025
Sheppard East LRT ~2025

This does not even include unfunded or highly contentious projects such as Scarborough subway (funded, but contentious), as well as 407 Freight Bypass (study funded, frees corridors for expanded GO service such as Milton RER), potential high speed rail (EA funded), Downtown Relief Line (study funded), Yonge subway extension (study funded), all of which might actually become funded between now and the completion of the above projects.

Vancouver, what's your currently funded transit projects through 2025?

Also, Vancouver's commuter train system is almost a joke -- when compared to GO.

Main Street Station Upgrade - 2015
Compass Card - 2015
New ART300 trains - 2015
New Westminster Station Upgrade - 2016
Evergreen Line - 2016
Commercial Broadway Station Upgrade - 2016
Joyce Station Upgrade - 2016
Hamilton Transit Centre - 2016
Metrotown Station Upgrade - 2017

There's also the Brighouse, Phibbs, Langley, Willowbrook, Guildford exchange construction/rebuild for 2016-2017.

 

[WislaHD]

Here's some pics I copied from over at the Evergreen Line thread:



It's beautiful. This type of system should've been what was built to York U and Vaughan SmartCentre Centre. No, not as proprietary Skytrain. It could've very well been the same setup as the S(L)RT plans (i.e straight up LRT). We'd have saved a bundle, and knocked 5yrs off the construction time (plus saved manpower, resources, and op costs in perpetuity) . What's that? Elevated is ugly you say? Have you ever been to Keele/Finch, or Hwy 7/Jane? It's already ugly...I mean really, those areas couldn't get any uglier. A well-landscaped concrete guideway would only improve the streetscape. And as is evident in Vancouver, and here in TO (where we already have a significant amount of elevated transportation structures), it simply would not prevent development. And the best part is: it's still a subway.

It isn't compatible with Line 1 which right there is a big downer.

I mean maybe we could've extended the subway to Steeles, then from there adopt an LRT routing from Steeles to Wonderland. That could've been an option. Political interests got in the way and overall we shouldn't be ungrateful for a subway the province is paying and York Region is subsidizing.

Another option could've been converting Sheppard to an LRT, buying an LRT vehicle that can operate in Sheppard's subway tunnel, connect Sheppard with Sheppard West, and send that line up to Vaughan.

But really, we are getting transit. There is no way we've came out of TYSSE as losers.