Visited Montreal for the first time. Some questions about their Metro system

[jamincan]

I'm pretty sure they have TBMs that can bore a large enough tunnel for the TTCs standard trains, but I guess the question is how much more costly it is than having two smaller TBMs. It seems unintuitive to me that a single bore is cheaper than two. Surely you would get away with removing less material since you have less wasted space above and below.

 

[nfitz]

I'm pretty sure they have TBMs that can bore a large enough tunnel for the TTCs standard trains, but I guess the question is how much more costly it is than having two smaller TBMs. It seems unintuitive to me that a single bore is cheaper than two. Surely you would get away with removing less material since you have less wasted space above and below.

The big issue is what your tunnelling through. In Montreal it's very competent bedrock. In Toronto it's mostly sand and silt with some clay. With some shale to the south near Union Station. It's a completely different beast.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Montreal doesn't even use TBMs does it? I thought they did it like Ottawa is with more traditional methods.

Speaking of Ottawa, they will also have single bore tunnels.

 

[W. K. Lis]

On the TTC, 32 Subway/RT station have elevators. 11 more stations will be accessible in the next 5 years. Because of funding reduction (see Rob Ford about this), funding is NOT available for 17. See link.

Stations below currently have funding for construction in the TTC 2014 – 2023 Capital Budget:

Stations	Complete by
Dufferin	Complete by 2014
Lawrence West	Complete by 2014
St. Clair West	Complete by 2016
Woodbine	Complete by 2017
Coxwell	Complete by 2017
Ossington	Complete by 2017
Royal York	Complete by 2017
Wilson	Complete by 2017
Runnymede	Complete by 2018
King	Complete by 2018
Yorkdale	Complete by 2018
Dupont	Complete by 2019
Donlands	Complete by 2019
Bay	Complete by 2019
St. Patrick	Complete by 2020
Sherbourne	Complete by 2020
Lawrence	Complete by 2020

Stations below do not have funding for construction in the TTC 2014 – 2023 Capital Budget:

Stations	Complete by
Greenwood	Complete by 2020
Wellesley	Complete by 2021
Lansdowne	Complete by 2021
Keele	Complete by 2021
College	Complete by 2022
Spadina	Complete by 2022
Chester	Complete by 2022
Christie	Complete by 2023
Castle Frank	Complete by 2023
Summerhill	Complete by 2023
High Park	Complete by 2023
Museum	Complete by 2024
Rosedale	Complete by 2024
Old Mill	Complete by 2024
Glencairn	Complete by 2025
Warden	Complete by 2025
Islington	Complete by 2025

In Montréal, only 7 stations are fully accessible, one station is only partially (total 8). From link:

Location of elevators

The Montmorency, De la Concorde, Cartier, Berri-UQAM, Lionel-Groulx, Henri-Bourassa and Côte-Vertu métro stations are accessible at street level to wheelchair users. The Bonaventure station is partially accessible, between the ticket booth level and train platforms only. For now, there is no direct access from street level.
Montmorency station

Enter from 1800 Jacques-Tétreault St. Enter from Lucien-Paiement St. to access the station from the passenger drop-off area,the outdoor parking area, or theindoor paid parking levels P1 and P4.
Montmorency station neighbourhood map (PDF)
De la Concorde station

Enter from the waiting area at 250 Montée du Moulin.
De la Concorde station neighbourhood map (PDF)
Cartier station

Enter from 5 Cartier Blvd. West
Cartier station neighbourhood map (PDF)
Berri-UQAM station

Access the station from Saint-Denis Street. You can also enter through these two buildings:

1. La Grande Bibliothèque
   475 De Maisonneuve Blvd. East
   Open:
   Tuesday to Friday: 10 a.m. to 10 p.m.
   Saturday and Sunday: 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.
   Monday and legal holidays: closed
2. UQAM
   1400 Berri St. (corner Berri and Sainte-Catherine)
   Open:
   7:30 a.m. to 11:30 p.m. Monday to Friday
   8:30 a.m. to 6 p.m. Saturday and Sunday
   Closed on legal holidays

Berri-UQAM station neighbourhood map (PDF)
Bonaventure station

Elevators are only available between the ticket booth level and train platforms.
Bonaventure station neighbourhood map (PDF)
Lionel-Groulx station

Enter from 620 Atwater Avenue
Lionel-Groulx station neighbourhood map (PDF)
Henri-Bourassa station

Access the station from the south corner of Henri-Bourassa and Lajeunesse.
Henri-Bourassa station neighbourhood map (PDF)
Côte-Vertu station

Enter station from Côte-Vertu North entrance.
Côte-Vertu station neighbourhood map (PDF)

 

[robmausser]

On the TTC, 32 Subway/RT station have elevators. 11 more stations will be accessible in the next 5 years. Because of funding reduction (see Rob Ford about this), funding is NOT available for 17. See link.



In Montréal, only 7 stations are fully accessible, one station is only partially (total 8). From link:

I read somewhere that Montreal has a mandate to have all stations accessible by 2080.... 2080!! Why even bother with a mandate.

 

[Johnny Au]

Toronto did not copy NYC subway’s aesthetics completely or else the stations in Toronto would use mosaic for the names and not use the unique Toronto subway font.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I read somewhere that Montreal has a mandate to have all stations accessible by 2080.... 2080!! Why even bother with a mandate.

Montréal's stations generally are deeper than Toronto's stations. Meaning the elevators have to be dug deeper and longer, hence more expensive.

 

[TheKingEast]

It's a breath of fresh air. Keep in mind Montreal used to be "Toronto" back in the 70's... Their city planning back then blows Toronto out of the water. Politics really screwed up that city.

 

[BurlOak]

Montréal's stations generally are deeper than Toronto's stations. Meaning the elevators have to be dug deeper and longer, hence more expensive.

The 3-stop extension, built in 2007 at the peak of construction costs, was $140M/km. I am not sure how deep they were, but the line did go under the Riviere des Prairies (Ottawa River?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Line_(Montreal_Metro)#Laval_extension

 

[innsertnamehere]

in the 1950's, maybe. the economic centre of the country had already shifted to Toronto by the 1970's, and even before then it was more of a dual city model than a "city 1" dominates "city 2" that exists today. The 1960's were the "tipping point", but industry had been moving towards Toronto for decades before it.

Toronto had lots of ambition in the 1970's as well, but of a different kind. It's urban battles in the 1970's were over the planned expressway network and the retention of streetcars, while Montreal simply ripped theirs up, built (most) of their highways, and kept on going. Take that as you will. Had Toronto gone with the plans that existed at that time, we would have had a subway on Queen street, but no streetcars, and at least the spadina expressway. Probably the Scarborough expressway as well.

 

[rbt]

I'm pretty sure they have TBMs that can bore a large enough tunnel for the TTCs standard trains, ...

Eglinton investigated using a single bore. The reason it was rejected is that every foundation on both sides of the street would have required reinforcement or risk shifting.

The gap to each side of the tunnel which may shift is related to the diameter of the tunnel.

 

[Voltz]

Eglinton investigated using a single bore. The reason it was rejected is that every foundation on both sides of the street would have required reinforcement or risk shifting.

The gap to each side of the tunnel which may shift is related to the diameter of the tunnel.

That was going to be an even larger double deck tunnel that was big enough to build the stations in as well. A single tunnel just large enough for two tracks would likely be smaller.

 

[nfitz]

The 3-stop extension, built in 2007 at the peak of construction costs, was $140M/km. I am not sure how deep they were, but the line did go under the Riviere des Prairies (Ottawa River?).

It's never referred to as the Ottawa River. Anglos are likely to simply refer to it as the back river.

 

[rbt]

That was going to be an even larger double deck tunnel that was big enough to build the stations in as well. A single tunnel just large enough for two tracks would likely be smaller.

Not really. If you've got a 14m height (for stacked cars)then you also have a 14m width which is tons of space for a platform even on the lower level.

Being able to fit the platform in the tunnel was a side effect of the tunnel just being huge for the trains.

Of course, you could do a single bore with trains side by side (10m?) and use side platforms but that substantially increases station costs (bit of capital, lots of operating costs) due to doubling the elevators, escalators, emergency exits, etc. This has the downside of being relatively expensive to bore (bore cost is proportional to volume excavated) and somewhat expensive to maintain.

If you can eliminate $3B in station costs then a single $3B large bore makes a lot of sense ($1B reduction) but if you can't then the business case starts to fall apart pretty quickly.

 

[ehlow]

The smoothness of the acceleration & braking I described earlier actually is because of ATC, rather than rubber tires, I believe.

The reason I say this is that I rode the yellow line recently to the island, and I immediately noticed that it accelerated and braked in a "choppy" non-smooth way. It felt very much like our system. I just read online that the yellow line is the only without ATC.

Quite a lot of people on the yellow line despite it only a couple of stops. By the way the trains do feel pretty cramped when it's busy. Also some transfers involve several very long escalator rides.