Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

TOareaFan said:
This is where my growing concern is. This province is spending billions of dollars on a bunch of transit lines that have that very same objective....that is change your behaviour. Don't drive to Port Credit or Cooksville GO...take the LRT! Hamiltonians, get on the LRT! Everyone coming to Toronto, ditch the car and get on one of those GO trains that will be every 15 minutes each direction! etc.
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Those LRT lines are local transit first, and regional connectors second. They already have a captive market in the bus routes they're going to be replacing, and it's not unfair to expect that a more comfortable service (LRT) at the same price will attract more people than the bus it is replacing. The closest thing the UPX had to a direct predecessor folded in recent years, and they clearly overestimated how much a 25 minute ride to Union was worth.

People do change their behaviour, but they change it rationally, after considering convenience, and cost.
 
Markster said:
Those LRT lines are local transit first, and regional connectors second. They already have a captive market in the bus routes they're going to be replacing, and it's not unfair to expect that a more comfortable service (LRT) at the same price will attract more people than the bus it is replacing. The closest thing the UPX had to a direct predecessor folded in recent years, and they clearly overestimated how much a 25 minute ride to Union was worth.

People do change their behaviour, but they change it rationally, after considering convenience, and cost.
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I did not mean to turn this into an argument/debate...just an expression of concern....but perhaps I could clarify. The closest thing to UP (the bus you refer to) did not close in recent years it closed as UP was getting ready to launch....and it did so because it's ridership had declined not because of the fares (which were always quite high...in fact higher than UP) but their ability to deliver a speedy service due to road congestion was impaired.

As for the LRTs.....I have no doubt that a more comfortable service will bring some ridership increase (just as UP has)...but does it do enough to change the behaviours of the many (and the ridership projections I have seen are predicated on a very significant increase in transit's share of trips).
 
Our difference is that I feel that because the LRT lines are core transit services it is likely to result in a much better outcome than for something that is effectively a downtown shuttle. They're both rail, they're both built by the province, but that's where the similarities end.
 
Also I would assume that UP had done a market analysis to estimate just what percentage of people would be willing to switch over to UP Express and at what price point they would switch. Since we don't have that study or even know if one was done we cant evaluate their study/predictions. An LRT route (or other local transit) wouldn't necessitate a market analysis.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I just rec'd an e-mail from UPE for free rides.

http://us10.campaign-archive1.com/?u=e6c532f4ffa0e5e5ae818bb9b&id=c8a6130ccb&e=c72d5e2009

I'm not sure I'd bother. What am I going to do, take the family on ride to the airport to see everyone else flying away, and then come home again?
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Gosh, my 3-year old would love it - especially after he slept through the whole thing the only time he's been on the UP (after a red-eye).

Is there anywhere at Pearson you can see planes from these days? The top of the old T1 parking garage used to be good - but that's been gone for years now.

Though it's going to be might cold on Saturday.
 
nfitz said:
Is there anywhere at Pearson you can see planes from these days? The top of the old T1 parking garage used to be good - but that's been gone for years now.
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If it warms up, it's worth taking a taxi to the Wendy's parking lot on Airport Rd. It's a fav for plane spotters.
 
I keep seeing that location mentioned with Google. Hmm, it's only a 15-minute walk from T3 (the only decent walking access to the Airport afaik) Though that's about 30 minutes with a 3-year old. If it were't going to be pushing -20°C I'd be tempted!

Anywhere within the airport that's warm? I can't think of much - other than the Sheraton in T3 - but I don't recall any vantage points that are publicly accessible. Looks like you can get a view from the T1 parking roof - but only to the east, where there's not much to see other than where T2 used to be. Hmm, might be able to see something from the far eastern edge of the T2 roof.

Maybe the roller-coaster from T1 to Viscount would suffice for a 3-year old.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I just rec'd an e-mail from UPE for free rides.

http://us10.campaign-archive1.com/?u=e6c532f4ffa0e5e5ae818bb9b&id=c8a6130ccb&e=c72d5e2009

I'm not sure I'd bother. What am I going to do, take the family on ride to the airport to see everyone else flying away, and then come home again?
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I actually plan to use this on the weekend solely because it's free. Usually when I go visit my parents in Brampton, I take the TTC to Kipling and have them pick me up there. This weekend I'll take the UP Express to Pearson and have them pick me up there. Closer for them, and a cheaper/faster trip for me.
 
LNahid2000 said:
I actually plan to use this on the weekend solely because it's free. Usually when I go visit my parents in Brampton, I take the TTC to Kipling and have them pick me up there. This weekend I'll take the UP Express to Pearson and have them pick me up there. Closer for them, and a cheaper/faster trip for me.
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Had no idea my daughter was on UT ;)
 
I believe that UP's time will come. So many people I know just love braying away about it being a "boondoggle" and other such nonsense. It's in its infancy, and it needs tweaking.

IMHO, the first problem with UP is the price is too expensive. It's cheaper and more convenient for many people to simply take an airport cab.

1. Lower the price to the price of your average GO Train trip.

2. Eliminate the $5.00 per head payment to the GTAA (airport).

3. Consider repurposing it to include commuters with new platforms built at Eglinton, Queen, King, Bathurst, Spadina.

4. Consider turning it into the western leg of an at-grade Downtown Relief Line. (It's half way there now.) Ditch the odd one-off trains in favour of a conventional subway. (You would need to build an eastern leg back up to Danforth, but that could be done either at-grade along existing railway corridors, or start tunnelling.)

A ride to the airport would then be a usual TTC fare, maybe a premium cost to go the airport like at Heathrow.
 
I might use it this weekend during all star festivities. I've calculated that fuel costs from my home downtown is about $8 + parking of $7, for a total of $15.
 
north man said:
I believe that UP's time will come. So many people I know just love braying away about it being a "boondoggle" and other such nonsense. It's in its infancy, and it needs tweaking.

IMHO, the first problem with UP is the price is too expensive. It's cheaper and more convenient for many people to simply take an airport cab.

1. Lower the price to the price of your average GO Train trip.

2. Eliminate the $5.00 per head payment to the GTAA (airport).

3. Consider repurposing it to include commuters with new platforms built at Eglinton, Queen, King, Bathurst, Spadina.

4. Consider turning it into the western leg of an at-grade Downtown Relief Line. (It's half way there now.) Ditch the odd one-off trains in favour of a conventional subway. (You would need to build an eastern leg back up to Danforth, but that could be done either at-grade along existing railway corridors, or start tunnelling.)

A ride to the airport would then be a usual TTC fare, maybe a premium cost to go the airport like at Heathrow.
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First bold part....having read the rest of your email should that not say "....time will come if it is totally revamped into something it isn't"?

Other bolded bits...aren't those contradictory statements?
 
TOareaFan said:
First bold part....having read the rest of your email should that not say "....time will come if it is totally revamped into something it isn't"?

Other bolded bits...aren't those contradictory statements?
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That was my takeaway. 'Give it time to work, because it does work. But simultaneously change it asap, because it doesn't work.'
 
TOareaFan said:
The slow (no?) growth in UP usage (while still early) is causing me some concern about the future of a lot of our province's transit plans...and is a bigger issue than UP itself (after all, the UP specific costs were fairly modest when compared to our other spending plans).

UP, at it's core, was predicated on a behaviour modification model.....we have an airport and a lot of people use it (locals and visitors) and they have their ways of getting to the airport. For UP to be successful it has(had?) to convince a decently significant (but not huge) number of people to change their method of getting to the airport. Partly it had to convince some who use public transit (rocket or GO buses) to pay a bit more for a more comfortable/direct ride to the airport but, mostly, it had to convince drivers/parkers and cab users to switch. In the very short term it has not reached those people enough to significantly change their behaviour.

This is where my growing concern is. This province is spending billions of dollars on a bunch of transit lines that have that very same objective....that is change your behaviour. Don't drive to Port Credit or Cooksville GO...take the LRT! Hamiltonians, get on the LRT! Everyone coming to Toronto, ditch the car and get on one of those GO trains that will be every 15 minutes each direction! etc.

If behaviours are that entrenched and if a fairly modest goal of 5k riders to the airport is so difficult to achieve....how realistic are the ridership projections on those lines (and others)? Is transit less a "build it an they will come" proposition than we believe (or are told)?
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basically, the one issue for the toronto pearson line is cost. 28 bucks is nuts, just nuts. a couple flies into san francisco, it costs them 16.50 to get from sfo to the embarcadero, time: 45 minutes. a couple flies into vancouver, it costs them 16.00 to get from yvr to waterfront station, time: 30 minutes. a couple flies into nyc, it costs them 15.50 to get from jfk to 42nd street station, time: 55 minutes. a couple flies into toronto, it costs 54 dollars to get downtown. add stops, drop the price to regular fare and add a $5-6 surcharge for entering/exiting at the airport, THEN you can suggest that this line is representative of transit elsewhere in ontario or north america.
 
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