Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

I've yet to experience those 427 northbound traffic jams that you guys always talk about to justify this rail service.
 
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MetroMan said:
That's not true. There is no such thing as "rush hour" in Toronto anymore. Any time could end up being a crawl. I live on King St. and Spadina and for no good reason at any time of the day, there'll be a lineup of cars backed up several blocks trying to get on the Gardiner way down on Lakeshore. While you can avoid times that you know for sure there'll be gridlock, the truth is that you can't predict traffic in Toronto anymore.
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Nonsense. I have routinely driven back and forth to Hamilton via the QEW/403, and typically take some combination of Bathurst and Spadina to get down from Yonge and Eglinton. Sunday around 5pm? Smooth sailing the whole way, limited mainly by red lights and my preference to take a more relaxed route.

You can't really fully predict traffic anywhere, but if you're to reduce this to random, atypical events, you couldn't predict that one day the UPX would end up out of service either.

In any case, I hardly see why we need to subsidize "downtown business" types let alone those who "play" downtown to get to the airport. And that is the issue here - there is an absolute public good in subsidizing things like suburban bus routes or (god help me) even the Sheppard subway. But UPX? It's relatively more subsidized than the TTC, and represents a substantial public outlay only for a vague piece of "prestige" infrastructure. By comparison, the Canada Line spur to YVR entails a "premium" fare of about $8 and drops you off at far more accessible stations along Cambie and downtown. Is there some reason that Vancouver business types need be relegated to "regular" public transit while their colleagues on Bay St require half (or more) empty trains with free wi-fi?

Extending the Crosstown to Pearson was (and is) always the better choice.
 
LNahid2000 said:
I've yet to experience those 427 northbound traffic jams that you guys always talk about to justify this rail service.
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Northbound 427 is normally fairly reasonable in AM peak, unless there's been a major incident. And it's not terrible in PM peak, because it's capacity far exceeds the Gardiner.

It's the Gardiner that's the big issue.
 
JGHali said:
Nonsense. I have routinely driven back and forth to Hamilton via the QEW/403, and typically take some combination of Bathurst and Spadina to get down from Yonge and Eglinton. Sunday around 5pm? Smooth sailing the whole way, limited mainly by red lights and my preference to take a more relaxed route.

You can't really fully predict traffic anywhere, but if you're to reduce this to random, atypical events, you couldn't predict that one day the UPX would end up out of service either.

In any case, I hardly see why we need to subsidize "downtown business" types let alone those who "play" downtown to get to the airport. And that is the issue here - there is an absolute public good in subsidizing things like suburban bus routes or (god help me) even the Sheppard subway. But UPX? It's relatively more subsidized than the TTC, and represents a substantial public outlay only for a vague piece of "prestige" infrastructure. By comparison, the Canada Line spur to YVR entails a "premium" fare of about $8 and drops you off at far more accessible stations along Cambie and downtown. Is there some reason that Vancouver business types need be relegated to "regular" public transit while their colleagues on Bay St require half (or more) empty trains with free wi-fi?

Extending the Crosstown to Pearson was (and is) always the better choice.
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Perhaps once Crosstown west is completed, the UPX will change
 
nfitz said:
Northbound 427 is normally fairly reasonable in AM peak, unless there's been a major incident. And it's not terrible in PM peak, because it's capacity far exceeds the Gardiner.

It's the Gardiner that's the big issue.
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The crossover zone from Kipling westwards to 427 is frequently stop and go, definitely in the morning rush and these days also often for a good part of the day. Once one gets on the ramp to 427 North, things generally improve and once one gets merged onto 427 speeds are quite reasonable, although volume can be heavy. Not a lengthy delay usually, just a bit tedious and 5-10 minutes of creeping.

Southbound, the ramp from 401 east/427 South around Eglinton is no picnic, but once past that, it's usually clear sailing until you get to the Humber - and then things go downhill.

The big picture is, driving from downtown to the airport is unpredictable and does have plenty of slow spots all day long. UP is waaay less stressful and more reliable.

I agree that the UP stops should not be increased greatly. Hopefully the Weston stop is closed when Mount Dennis opens. Liberty is the only further stop that might be justified.

The key concern should not be the less-than-predicted value we are getting from the $450M investment in UP - it's the ridiculously low value we are getting from the other $1.3B that was spent on this corridor, which has netted a ridiculously meagre number of additional GO trains.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
The crossover zone from Kipling westwards to 427 is frequently stop and go, definitely in the morning rush and these days also often for a good part of the day. Once one gets on the ramp to 427 North, things generally improve and once one gets merged onto 427 speeds are quite reasonable, although volume can be heavy. Not a lengthy delay usually, just a bit tedious and 5-10 minutes of creeping.

Southbound, the ramp from 401 east/427 South around Eglinton is no picnic, but once past that, it's usually clear sailing until you get to the Humber - and then things go downhill.

The big picture is, driving from downtown to the airport is unpredictable and does have plenty of slow spots all day long. UP is waaay less stressful and more reliable.

I agree that the UP stops should not be increased greatly. Hopefully the Weston stop is closed when Mount Dennis opens. Liberty is the only further stop that might be justified.

The key concern should not be the less-than-predicted value we are getting from the $450M investment in UP - it's the ridiculously low value we are getting from the other $1.3B that was spent on this corridor, which has netted a ridiculously meagre number of additional GO trains.

- Paul
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In a few short years we'll have lots of off-peak GO service there and not much after that there will be RER.
 
LNahid2000 said:
I've yet to experience those 427 northbound traffic jams that you guys always talk about to justify this rail service.
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Granted the back ups tend to start just north of the airport. the 427 North is frequently stop and go from 4:30 to about 6/6:30 ish. But believe me, it's bad
 
The fare structure doesn't even need to change very much to increase ridership. Just charge GO fares outside of the airport. Instant RER between Weston and downtown. I expect very little money would be lost by dropping fares for those passengers already making these trips, and many new fare-paying passengers could be gained to fill those empty seats.

I live near Bloor GO and I would definitely use it anytime I'm going to/near Union Station. Current GO schedules never match that need for me, unfortunately.
 
Something that I noticed twice in the last week: Drivers using the westbound lane of Bloor St. just west of the station to wait for passenger pick ups. Both times just after 6pm, with rush hour traffic having to slow down and go around them. Extra crappy for cyclists...

I wonder when the official drop off / pick up area will open.
 
Even Kathleen Wynn is now musing about using it for commuter service:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...8/union-pearson-train-as-a-commuter-line.html

"It wasn't designed for that but there are two stations, the Dundas West (at Bloor St.) and the Weston stop, and so you know there is the possibility for it to be used in some partial ways for getting downtown," the premier told reporters on Monday in Toronto.

"That's what Metrolinx has to look at," she added.

The premier's comments came after a report late Friday showed that six months after its launch, the train's ridership had fallen and it was tracking at less than half of its targeted boardings this year.

Wynne wouldn't weigh suggestions for lower fares that could attract riders -- such as prices equivalent to GO Trains or the TTC. Metrolinx needs to consider "all of the options" for the trains that run every 15 minutes in both directions between Union Station and the airport, she said.

"At this point we need to look at how we can speed that up," said Wynne.
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crs1026 said:
Amusing, considering that at last week's town hall, her Transport Minister was assuring the meeting that all was well and that "we just need to give it time for people to change their travel habits".

- Paul
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The Ministry of MTO in 2007 said this was a bad idea and how right she was on the UPX back then.

This is a money looser and having the Ministry saying ("we just need to give it time for people to change their travel habits") shows how out of touch he is on transit.

Even if you reduce the current fare to fare by distance, you will still find people using the cabs to get to/from the airport to/from downtown since they are door to door service in the first place while UPX is not.
 
crs1026 said:
Amusing, considering that at last week's town hall, her Transport Minister was assuring the meeting that all was well and that "we just need to give it time for people to change their travel habits".
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And the just need to give it time for more people to get richer to be able to afford the train.
 
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