TTC: Transit City Bus Plan

[Earlscourt_Lad]

I think you are right about Sasamat but it's due to being close to UBC and is very much a student ghetto for UBC and UBC is the next stop. Only reason it doesn't have a major bus route is because is borders the UBC Endowment Lands, it's a logical exception.

As someone who lived local to that particular stop (10th & Camosun) when the service was introduced, the Sasamat stop had nothing really to do with UBC. There was a bit of concern (Nimby-ism I suppose) about these buses running through the neighbourhood, being disruptive, and not serving the West Point Grey community. Also, given that Sasamat is the centre of the commercial strip on 10th, it's a pretty logical choice despite not having an intersecting bus route.

For those interested in continuing down this rabbit hole, I believe they did contemplate a stop at Blanca. That would almost have intersected with 4, 25, and 9 short turns at Blanca Loop. However it's bit nowhere, being two blocks west of Sasamat and a bit north, with nothing but the golf course and housing around it.

While I'm at it, I'll eat my hat if a Skytrain ever stops at 10th and Sasamat. Over towards 8th maybe, but unless they're going to make that an ultra-low level station, given the grade on 10th, I don't see it.

 

[nfitz]

While I'm at it, I'll eat my hat if a Skytrain ever stops at 10th and Sasamat. Over towards 8th maybe, but unless they're going to make that an ultra-low level station, given the grade on 10th, I don't see it.

Is grade that much of a concern for the Skytrain/SRT vehicles? I thought that was one of their strengths.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

Is grade that much of a concern for the Skytrain/SRT vehicles? I thought that was one of their strengths.

It is indeed, but the hill up from Alma would be quite something if they went overground. If they go underground, the more likely option, why throw in a sharp grade to hit one stop?

Back on target, I've often thought that a "B-Line" type of service would work really well in Toronto. The buses here remind me of the way they used to be in Vancouver (ie milk runs), prior to the 99 and related routes. Part of the success of the B-Line buses was they way they marketed them as distinct from the regular buses. Different stops, different livery, and different equipment, all help create the impression of a different type of service and created much more awareness of it. Not to knock the TTC but having the expresses look the same, have the same number (but with a suffix) really doesn't entice people to consider that those services do exist.

 

[gweed123]

It is indeed, but the hill up from Alma would be quite something if they went overground. If they go underground, the more likely option, why throw in a sharp grade to hit one stop?

Back on target, I've often thought that a "B-Line" type of service would work really well in Toronto. The buses here remind me of the way they used to be in Vancouver (ie milk runs), prior to the 99 and related routes. Part of the success of the B-Line buses was they way they marketed them as distinct from the regular buses. Different stops, different livery, and different equipment, all help create the impression of a different type of service and created much more awareness of it. Not to knock the TTC but having the expresses look the same, have the same number (but with a suffix) really doesn't entice people to consider that those services do exist.

I think it's this "branding" that you're talking about that has made Viva and Züm so successful. It's amazing what a different paint job, some fancy stops, and a little marketing can do.

But yes, I've been advocating this for a long time, especially on routes that have been pegged for LRT but won't be getting it for the foreseeable future (Don Mills, Jane, Scarborough-Malvern, Finch East + Finch West to Keele). You could even add additional corridors like Kipling or Islington, as well as either Lawrence or Wilson/York Mills/Ellesmere.

The amount of infrastructure is pretty minimal, with at most some queue jump lanes at major intersections. For a BRT-Light service like the B-Line or Züm, it's primarily a marketing exercise, with some fancy stops thrown in.

 

[nfitz]

It is indeed, but the hill up from Alma would be quite something if they went overground. If they go underground, the more likely option, why throw in a sharp grade to hit one stop?

I don't see much difference in grade between 8th Avenue and Sasamat and 10th Avenue and Sasamat. Also I don't have the elevations on hand, but it's over a mile from Alma to Sasamat - you can get a good elevation change. What's the maximum grade they typically use in Vancouver?

Back on target, I've often thought that a "B-Line" type of service would work really well in Toronto.

Well they do. It's Viva. Except it only runs once every 15 minutes or so, compared to once every 2-3 minutes. I agree though ... TTC needs to step up their game in this area big time!

 

[ssiguy2]

I wouldn't say the B-Line is just some paint and bus shelters as it was very well thought out.

All the B-Line buses are low-floor articulated and painted differently so they are easily recognizable. They run VERY frequently, have POP, stops are not at the same spot as the still running #9 which serves local traffic but rather across the street or 30 meters further down the street. They have bus-only lanes during rush hour and the no parking in rush hour is very strictly enforced. It only stops at major cross streets with bus connections.............if your street isn't important enough to have a bus route then it's not important enough for a rapid transit stop. The B-Line is also shown on the rapid transit map with SkyTrain much like what L.A. does with it's Orange & Silver line BRT systems.

The dwell time at stops is only about 20 seconds, as soon as everyone is boarded then the doors close. It is a very reliable and fast service and businesses along the route advertise with their nearest B-Line station much like they would do for SkyTrain or Toronto subway.

It was implemented incredibly fast and Broadway is now N.A.'s busiest bus route............to say it has been a success just doesn't do it justice. It would be a FAR superior system for Finch and Sheppard with those LRT non-rapid trains stopping at the lights and every 2-3 blocks to pickup passengers. This is why I don't think Toronto could implement such a thing, the TTC and city haven't the guts to tell people that the rapid transit isn't going to stop at your front door.

 

[M II A II R II K]

These would gain more traction and would have to be given more priority over anything else on the road.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Just try to get those buses into Toronto's downtown bus terminal... during construction season.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

I don't see much difference in grade between 8th Avenue and Sasamat and 10th Avenue and Sasamat. Also I don't have the elevations on hand, but it's over a mile from Alma to Sasamat - you can get a good elevation change. What's the maximum grade they typically use in Vancouver?

Well they do. It's Viva. Except it only runs once every 15 minutes or so, compared to once every 2-3 minutes. I agree though ... TTC needs to step up their game in this area big time!

Good question, I don't know what the maximum grade is.

As for the TTC, I agree, they need to step up their game here. I think B-Line type service is the "low hanging fruit" of real and perceived service improvements. It doesn't matter much to most riders if there's a bus every 3 mins or 5 minutes, but would likely matter more if they could get to the subway in under 20 stops.

 

[snowystar]

Good question, I don't know what the maximum grade is.

6.5% for existing system; 6% for new constructions.

 

[diminutive]

As for the TTC, I agree, they need to step up their game here. I think B-Line type service is the "low hanging fruit" of real and perceived service improvements. It doesn't matter much to most riders if there's a bus every 3 mins or 5 minutes, but would likely matter more if they could get to the subway in under 20 stops.

That should have been what Transit City was. Rather than having separate Transit City and Transit City Bus Plans, the entire project should have been aimed at improving surface operations along all of the ~20 major surface routes.

All of these heavily travelled surface routes should have been given basic improvements like all door boarding/proof of payment, higher capacity vehicles and marginally wider stop spacing (or local-express systems) , with various other improvements like queue jump lanes, partial/complete or temporary/permanent ROWs, signal priority and such included on a case-by-case basis. From what I understand none of the Transit City on-street LRTs were expected to be much faster than 20-25 km/h on average; it ought to be possible to get all of the big surface routes to that speed with relatively modest investments.

Whether or not a route was streetcar or bus based would be a minor distinction based on route characteristics (i.e. excessive demand, necessary tunnelling...).

 

[gweed123]

That should have been what Transit City was. Rather than having separate Transit City and Transit City Bus Plans, the entire project should have been aimed at improving surface operations along all of the ~20 major surface routes.

All of these heavily travelled surface routes should have been given basic improvements like all door boarding/proof of payment, higher capacity vehicles and marginally wider stop spacing (or local-express systems) , with various other improvements like queue jump lanes, partial/complete or temporary/permanent ROWs, signal priority and such included on a case-by-case basis. From what I understand none of the Transit City on-street LRTs were expected to be much faster than 20-25 km/h on average; it ought to be possible to get all of the big surface routes to that speed with relatively modest investments.

Whether or not a route was streetcar or bus based would be a minor distinction based on route characteristics (i.e. excessive demand, necessary tunnelling...).

Bang on. And after a few years of operation, figure out which routes still need additional improvements. If there are certain areas along selected routes that are still congested, add in shoulder bus lanes to bypass the congestion along that stretch. If an upgrade to LRT is warranted to handle the demand, then so be it. I still think it's better to give 10-15 routes a 10-15% improvement on travel time than it is to give a couple routes a 20-25% improvement.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

All of these heavily travelled surface routes should have been given basic improvements like all door boarding/proof of payment, higher capacity vehicles and marginally wider stop spacing (or local-express systems)

Totally right.

Local/Express systems are a good bet here given the closely spaced nature of stops on most routes, and the apparent furor that results from suggesting someone walk more than 100 yards without hitting a stop (eg the Oakwood stop reinstation on the Crosstown).

 

[ssiguy2]

Where the hell are those buses from? I didn't know there was such a thing ass an articulated double-decker transit bus. I knew about the one rock bands use but those aren't transit buses.

As for TC bus system, using the B-Line system and increasing ridership along the route is exactly what Translink did.
The 3 B-Line routes became so popular and increased ridership so significantly that eventual upgrades were needed. Vancouver's 3 B-Line routes are Broadway, Richmond, and Coquitlam. The Canada Line has replaced the Richmond B-Line as Evergreen will soon do with Coquitlam and Broadway SkyTrain will do with Broadway B-Line by 2021.

It helps build ridership and yet offers immediate transit relief with higher capacity, far faster service, more frequent and reliable service, easier to board/exit, POP, and branding.

 

[gweed123]

Where the hell are those buses from? I didn't know there was such a thing ass an articulated double-decker transit bus. I knew about the one rock bands use but those aren't transit buses.

As for TC bus system, using the B-Line system and increasing ridership along the route is exactly what Translink did.
The 3 B-Line routes became so popular and increased ridership so significantly that eventual upgrades were needed. Vancouver's 3 B-Line routes are Broadway, Richmond, and Coquitlam. The Canada Line has replaced the Richmond B-Line as Evergreen will soon do with Coquitlam and Broadway SkyTrain will do with Broadway B-Line by 2021.

It helps build ridership and yet offers immediate transit relief with higher capacity, far faster service, more frequent and reliable service, easier to board/exit, POP, and branding.

I think one of the biggest ways the B-Lines helped from a transit planning perspective is they help avoid multi-billion dollar white elephants. They're a very good way of reliably gauging demand on a corridor for pennies on the dollar compared to an ICTS, high-capacity LRT, or HRT solution. Plus they're a good stepping stone if you know that realistic upgrades to that corridor are years if not decades away (*cough* Jane or Don Mills *cough*).

I would venture to say that had the Sheppard corridor been "B Tested" with a B-Line style service, that the Sheppard Subway would have never been built (because the B Line ridership would have shown that a full subway wasn't justifiable based on the ridership), and we probably wouldn't be about to spend nearly a billion dollars on a Sheppard East LRT.

In fact, I think that it should be Metrolinx policy that in advance of any at-grade LRT service, that a B-Line type of service must be implemented first, in order to verify that the projected ridership is actually there, and that there is sufficient reason to warrant spending billions of dollars building an LRT along that corridor. Mississauga and Brampton are already sort of doing that with the overlapping services they have on Hurontario, and other 905 areas are using pre-BRT or BRT-Lite services to gauge ridership before spending billions on full BRT or LRT corridors.

If this policy can avoid the building of even one white elephant that drains operating resources, then I think it's a policy worth implementing. Transit dollars are too scarce to go blowing on some "build it and they will come" scenario.