44 North
Senior Member
So what trains are going on Line 2? Will it be the TR, but minus the open gangway concept? Or will TTC be putting out a tender for a new rolling stock?
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Fred.S
Active Member
I think it has to be a new tender. Curious, why would it be TRs without the open gangways?
44 North
Senior Member
Oh, I thought there was something I've seen posted that the TR can't navigate into Greenwood Yard, and I may've erroneously(?) concluded it was due to the open gangway component of the train.
And will the tender be open to all bidders (and is that something TTC is open to), or is it merely a tender for a newer variant of Bombardier's Movia?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Greenwood Yard can't support six car trainsets and is likely to be retired in a few years. A new yard will have to be built at Kipling to support the new Line 2 trainsets.
However, in the longer term Greenwood would likely be reopened and repurposed to store the Relief Line trains, once it can be rebuilt to support the six car trainsets.
44 North
Senior Member
Ah. But this is what I'm curious about with the future of Line 2 vehicles. Is it set in stone that we'll use the fixed-configuration of six-car open gangway trainsets? Perhaps we can use the open gangway with configurations of 3+3 or 4+2; slightly lower capacity than current TR and can't be walked end-to-end, but would allow continued use of Greenwood Yd.
Amare
Senior Member
The current plan sees that the TR's will shift to the Bloor-Danforth line once new trains have been ordered and delivered to replace the current T1 cars. However this plan requires that the B-D line has it's signal system overhauled and replaced just like what has been going on on the Y-U-S line. Without this, the TRs would not be able to be transferred over.
The planned Scarborough subway extension would kick start the signal overhaul on the line, and the rest of the B-D line would follow along. The problem with this plan is that there is no funding in place today for this plan so really this entire plan is really in jeopardy unless the city gets their act together.
The short answer as to whether or not the production line for the TR will be re-started is no. This is due to: a) technology advancements, and b) payments that would have to be made to Bombardier to re-start.
Megaton327
Senior Member
Are you sure that's correct? The TRs function perfectly fine on Line 1 today without ATC active, and I was under the impression the current legacy signals on Line 1 today are not materially different from those on Line 2. They have run TRs multiple times on BD with no issues. I believe the reason the Line 2 signal system needs to be replaced is because the Scarborough Subway Extension is planned to use ATC.
rbt
Senior Member
The reason it needs to be replaced is the parts are ancient, nobody makes them, and keeping it in a functional state is proving more and more difficult as each year passes.
Installing an ancient signalling system in a new extension just seems so silly to the technical staff that they've assumed the rest of the line will be upgraded first.
smallspy
Senior Member
That rumour has been thoroughly debunked quite a few times now. The TRs have run every single inch of the existing subway system, and every inch of the upcoming extension as well.
Uhhhh......no. Greenwood Yard won't be retired. I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, because the TTC themselves certainly don't see a problem with the facility, at least on an interim basis, when the T1 replacement trains get delivered and they need to maintain them.
The TTC has no such plan. The currently plan is simply to order a T1 replacement fleet - with no assumptions what form that replacement may take.
For the record, there are far more TRs on the property than there will ever need to be trains on the B-D - even taking into account all projected service improvements and full service on the extension to Scarborough Town Centre.
The TRs run quite happily on the existing signal system.
The issue with the B-D is signal system and its age, not any interfaces to any trains, current or future.
While it is true that the TTC isn't going to ask Bombardier to restart production of the TRs, the fact of it is that your reasoning for that conclusion is untrue. The issue is that the TTC is simply not ready to deal with replacing the T1s. A lot of things need to happen before they can get to that point.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Amare
Senior Member
Appreciate those corrections Dan, the plans have changed quite a bit since the last time I read the fleet replacement plans.
I mixed up the T1 and TR's situation, it's the T1s that have some compatibility issues with the newer signal system which is part of the reason why the Sheppard line is now operated with TRs.
I mixed up the T1 and TR's situation, it's the T1s that have some compatibility issues with the newer signal system which is part of the reason why the Sheppard line is now operated with TRs.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
So Greenwood can support maintenance of six car trainsets? At least temporarily? I was under the impression that the new Kipling Yard would need to be competed before TTC could take delivery of the T1 replacement sets due to the size incompatibility.
TransitBart
Senior Member
It is not impossible to use Greenwood. It is inefficient. In an deal world, the storage tracks would be an even multiple of the permanently mated train set length to maximize the stoarage capacity of the track. If the train consists are permanently mated 6 car sets of a certain length and the storage tracks are multiples of two car sets, say 4 x 2 cars, then since there are no two car sets in the future, that storage space is effectively "wasted" since only 1 x 6 fits on that track.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Exactly by 2019 both line 1 and line 4 will be using the new ATC signaling system. Line 4 is considered to be part of Line 1 operationally, both because of the connection they have plus there is also no storage or maintenance facility for line 4.
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smallspy
Senior Member
They were able to service the TRs at Wilson before all of the improvements were completed at the carhouse, weren't they?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Wilson didn't need to be updated it's Davisville that can't service them as it was designed for two cra married pairs. Alos its' not the yard space it's the maintenance area that can't handle the six car trains.