Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[mgl]

What is the operating agreement with Vaughan? If Toronto subsidizes the TTC but trips will now originate in Vaughan, will Vaughan be chipping in some part of the TTC subsidy?

 

[Megaton327]

What is the operating agreement with Vaughan? If Toronto subsidizes the TTC but trips will now originate in Vaughan, will Vaughan be chipping in some part of the TTC subsidy?

Last I heard, Vaughan was paying 0% of the operating and ongoing maintenance fees for the extension, no TTC subsidy or anything.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Used to be that the revenue and expenses for each route was published. Can't find recent listings.

So we don't know which subway line is "profitable" or not.

 

[BMO]

What is the operating agreement with Vaughan? If Toronto subsidizes the TTC but trips will now originate in Vaughan, will Vaughan be chipping in some part of the TTC subsidy?

Last I heard, Vaughan was paying 0% of the operating and ongoing maintenance fees for the extension, no TTC subsidy or anything.

Millions of trips are already originating outside of Toronto and using the TTC. The fact it travels a few KMs past its border doesn't change this fact. The TTC will end up owning all the land, assets and property that this extension is being built upon. So each station is essentially technically TTC's property and not York Region's...if you want to play semantics. As such the extension is expected to have lower frequencies north of Steeles.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Millions of trips are already originating outside of Toronto and using the TTC. The fact it travels a few KMs past its border doesn't change this fact. The TTC will end up owning all the land, assets and property that this extension is being built upon. So each station is essentially technically TTC's property and not York Region's...if you want to play semantics.

Owning depreciating assets isn't exactly much to write home about.

AoD

 

[BMO]

Owning depreciating assets isn't exactly much to write home about.

AoD

Why would York Region subsidize something that they get no say in how it operates? They don't get to decide the fares? There's no incentive to subsidize it because that would essentially be giving money to an agency that has time and again shown that York Region is not a priority. Toronto doesn't subsidize bus routes that go into Toronto from the suburbs, it even prevents them from picking people up! How come we should change the rules when Toronto operates out of their boundaries?

Hey on the bright side, if the TTC figures it's losing money like crazy at leastt tey won't be obliged to continue operating the line and can just stop.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Why would York Region subsidize something that they get no say in how it operates? They don't get to decide the fares? There's no incentive to subsidize it because that would essentially be giving money to an agency that has time and again shown that York Region is not a priority. Toronto doesn't subsidize bus routes that go into Toronto from the suburbs, it even prevents them from picking people up! How come we should change the rules when Toronto operates out of their boundaries?

Actually, if the old rules are applied you'd be paying a surcharge the moment it crosses the boundary.

AoD

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Owning depreciating assets isn't exactly much to write home about.

AoD

Land in Vaughan is a depreciating asset? Someone should tell SmartCentres!
TTC also gets 100% of the parking revenue from lots in York Region that don't exist today.

For all the hullabaloo and fooferaw, I doubt the net operating subsidy to go from Pioneer Village to VMC will be remotely what people here are guessing. Given how TTC ridership in the city is DROPPING, making it easier for 905ers to get on the system might actually be a growth strategy, eh?

Sometimes it's interesting how people filter everything through the lens of being a taxpayer rather than a transit rider; especially given the TTC's famously low subsidy. Ironically, given that we're talking about a suburban subway, I think Rob Ford would be proud.

Last I heard, Vaughan was paying 0% of the operating and ongoing maintenance fees for the extension, no TTC subsidy or anything.

York Region is the relevant municipality not Vaughan, but that's true per the contract - as in the AGREEMENT between two parties- that was established.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why would York Region subsidize something that they get no say in how it operates? They don't get to decide the fares? There's no incentive to subsidize it because that would essentially be giving money to an agency that has time and again shown that York Region is not a priority. Toronto doesn't subsidize bus routes that go into Toronto from the suburbs, it even prevents them from picking people up! How come we should change the rules when Toronto operates out of their boundaries?

Hey on the bright side, if the TTC figures it's losing money like crazy at leastt tey won't be obliged to continue operating the line and can just stop.

It's only a 2 km trip between Steeles West and VMC stations. Maybe we can shut down the subway and run an express bus service between the two points. It'd probably be cheaper.

 

[Cobra]

Why would York Region subsidize something that they get no say in how it operates?

Because York Region are massively beneficiating from having the subway go into their territory...otherwise, why would they fight so hard for it? Think about all the jobs, new residents, new investments and overall land value that will go up? If York wants a say, paying their share of the O&M costs is a great place to start.

They don't get to decide the fares?

No, TTC stands for Toronto Transit Commission, just like we don't get a say on fare for YRT

There's no incentive to subsidize it because that would essentially be giving money to an agency that has time and again shown that York Region is not a priority.

York Region is not within the mandate of the TTC. Their mandate is for the City of Toronto alone. They were force to operate the subway into Vaughan and they will be doing just that, but at the same time, I don't understand why York should be exempt for paying the extra O&M cost for an extension that TTC wanted no part of. That extension O&M is paid for by the Toronto citizen through their taxes to get trains into the middle of nowhere.

Furthermore, take the city of Montreal as an example. Longueuil and Laval have STM Metro stations and they pay for their share of the O&M costs. The arguments that you're raising about how York Region shouldn't pay for it was made by Laval as well and it didn't fly with the city. In the end, Laval pays for the O&M and their citizens pay a surcharge to use the metro. Like I pointed out earlier, Laval and Longueuil massively beneficiated by having the metro in their cities. Fair is Fair.

Toronto doesn't subsidize bus routes that go into Toronto from the suburbs, it even prevents them from picking people up! How come we should change the rules when Toronto operates out of their boundaries?
Hey on the bright side, if the TTC figures it's losing money like crazy at leastt tey won't be obliged to continue operating the line and can just stop.

Comparing bus service to subway service doesn't even warrant a response

 

[Cobra]

Land in Vaughan is a depreciating asset? Someone should tell SmartCentres!
TTC also gets 100% of the parking revenue from lots in York Region that don't exist today.

With the O&M costs missing, that's the least that could have happened, don't you think?

For all the hullabaloo and fooferaw, I doubt the net operating subsidy to go from Pioneer Village to VMC will be remotely what people here are guessing.

Operating a subway is very very expensive, there's a reason why not every major cities in the world have them. By the way, if it's so cheap, why isn't York Region building their own subways with their own logo on them? (Like New Jersey PATH). Maybe it's because they figured that with York Region ridership, operating that subway would bankrupt the region...right?

Given how TTC ridership in the city is DROPPING, making it easier for 905ers to get on the system might actually be a growth strategy, eh?

Are you for real? The decrease in ridership is also due to inefficiencies of the TTC network not allowing it to give an optimal service to its citizens. How is overcrowding the subway further would be a good thing??? That would drop the quality of the service even further. TTC needs expansion and to be up to date with their backlog of repairs, not more 905 riders. How many reports do you need to understand that the network cant take it??

York Region is the relevant municipality not Vaughan, but that's true per the contract - as in the AGREEMENT between two parties- that was established.

Forced upon by the province.Fixed

 

[BMO]

Comparing bus service to subway service doesn't even warrant a response

I think when you group all the regional buses from YRT, DRT, MiWay, and Brampton that go into and out of Toronto I think it's an entirely fair comparison. None of those routes ask for subsidies even though they cross a municipal boundary. Just because a subway is a higher-order transit line and costs a lot of money to build doesn't mean all points of prior logic for x-border travel is tossed out the window.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Operating a subway is very very expensive, there's a reason why not every major cities in the world have them. By the way, if it's so cheap, why isn't York Region building their own subways with their own logo on them? (Like New Jersey PATH).

Maybe you haven't noticed but there's a river separating NYC and NJ and literally not an inch between Toronto and york Region.

But, no, you're right - the solution to our transit woes is to have everybody build their own teeny pieces. it's what we've been missing. We don't even need them to connect. They should eliminate the Pioneer village Station, have York Region build to Steeles and leave a gap between Toronto's subway and York Region's. That's what riders want and need, totally.

Not that your question was a serious one but the obvious answer is that the system - the network - has to cross the border. We can quibble over funding arrangements but the idea that a suburb should build its own subway - and that's somehow proof the city's subway going there makes no sense - is absurd. More strawmen than I can count.

Are you for real? The decrease in ridership is also due to inefficiencies of the TTC network not allowing it to give an optimal service to its citizens.

Oh, it's also due to that. So, partially what I said. Do you know the exact percentages so we can assign blame on a pro-rated basis? you seem to.

TTC needs expansion and to be up to date with their backlog of repairs, not more 905 riders. How many reports do you need to understand that the network cant take it??

And now the network can't take the Spadina extension either? You're clearly making it up as you go along but I'll pretend roll with it, even though the actual fact is that the extension will BENEFIT the overall network, by attracting at least some percentage of riders off of the overcrowded Yonge line.

Are we going to have passport checkers because, I hate to break it you, 905ers are riding it every day RIGHT NOW! I've even done it! Did it when I lived in the 416, did it when I lived in the 905...oh, yeah, and I'll do it again and you'll never know! How, extension or not, are you going to stop "more 905ers" from getting on the subway?

I'm playing the world's smallest violin for the province "forcing" the agreement on the Toronto. Reading the newspaper today it sounds like they're doing such a bang-up job when no one is interfering. All about network thinking, building subways anywhere but far-flung subways where they're not justified, funneling funds to state-of-good-repair, making sure not to open lines that will require heavy operational subsidy for years on end. It's really unfortunate how, in this singular instance, provincial interference threw them off their world class game.

Oh, and the latest headline on The Star is Tory wants everyone to cut a few more hundred mil and find efficiencies in their existing system. It's clearly the fault of 905 residents that Toronto isn't able to fund its transit network adequately.

 

[Cobra]

I think when you group all the regional buses from YRT, DRT, MiWay, and Brampton that go into and out of Toronto I think it's an entirely fair comparison. None of those routes ask for subsidies even though they cross a municipal boundary. Just because a subway is a higher-order transit line and costs a lot of money to build doesn't mean all points of prior logic for x-border travel is tossed out the window.

Your point still doesn't warrant an answer

 

[Cobra]

Maybe you haven't noticed but there's a river separating NYC and NJ and literally not an inch between Toronto and york Region.

But, no, you're right - the solution to our transit woes is to have everybody build their own teeny pieces. it's what we've been missing. We don't even need them to connect. They should eliminate the Pioneer village Station, have York Region build to Steeles and leave a gap between Toronto's subway and York Region's. That's what riders want and need, totally.

Not that your question was a serious one but the obvious answer is that the system - the network - has to cross the border. We can quibble over funding arrangements but the idea that a suburb should build its own subway - and that's somehow proof the city's subway going there makes no sense - is absurd. More strawmen than I can count.

I keep pointing out the Montreal example for a reason. Subway extension beyond Montreal Island is now a none issue since the whole CMM (GTA version for Montreal) pays taxes to help with the Metro O&M (Yes a subway is that freakin expensive to operate). Montreal made the point that the whole CMM was beneficiating from the metro existing on Montreal Island and made the case that the metro should considered not only a "Montreal asset" but a "Metropolitan Asset" , therefore, the whole CMM should indeed help paying to keep it running.

My issue was that as long as Toronto doesn't get something similar, meaning the burden of the O&M being solely on Toronto, you're damn right that the TTC and Toronto have every right to resent expansion beyond its borders, especially if municipalities beyond Toronto doesn't help paying for the O&M.

What's so hard to understand?
Yet I keep seeing people being happy with the current arrangement which is unfair to Toronto.