TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[UD2]

Ward 42 Candidates were 13-8 in favor of scrapping the Sheppard East LRT (3 Undecided, 5 unreported). Neethan Shan did support it.

Ward 39,40 & 41 will have far less support. Aside from Shan's support this line looks to be in trouble

People of Scarborough are a fairly ironic bunch. I have yet to see any area or people turn down a piece of vital infrastructure as fiercely as these people.

 

[Rainforest]

People of Scarborough are a fairly ironic bunch. I have yet to see any area or people turn down a piece of vital infrastructure as fiercely as these people.

For the locals, Sheppard LRT would be useful but not "vital". Bus #85 is not that busy, mixed-traffic congestion is not too bad, LRT will be faster than the bus but not dramatically faster.

 

[44 North]

People of Scarborough are a fairly ironic bunch. I have yet to see any area or people turn down a piece of vital infrastructure as fiercely as these people.

I wouldn't say they're 'turning it down' in the conventional sense. Rather they want it upgraded to subway - the same subway that was once a number one priority. If any area was promised something that had subsequently gotten downgraded over time, I wouldn't be surprised to see an identical push for it returning. Be it subway->LRT, LRT->bus, located in downtown, or somewhere in the 905. Personally I don't support the Sheppard Subway cause, but I don't fully blame them either.

 

[OneCity]

People of Scarborough are a fairly ironic bunch. I have yet to see any area or people turn down a piece of vital infrastructure as fiercely as these people.

Ive yet to see another area with such an odd subway stub. Its not the technology that the problem here.

So, does Shan support both SSE and the Sheppard East LRT?

Not a bad configuration, IMO. Of course, in that case the two have to be connected. Either the subway should be (re)extended to Sheppard, or the LRT has to divert to STC and meet the subway terminus.

You nailed it. Id support the LRT but only if they bring the SSE to Sheppard. The LRT if connected up with the Eglinton Crosstown would provide a nice useful loop. Really unfortunate we couldn't convert the stubway to accept LRT as im pretty certain this inconvenience will be the cause of this lines death.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They could at least put the Sheppard bus in its own lanes and make it BRT.

 

[Cobra]

For the locals, Sheppard LRT would be useful but not "vital". Bus #85 is not that busy, mixed-traffic congestion is not too bad, LRT will be faster than the bus but not dramatically faster.

Hence my point I keep mentioning over and over.

When officials had public consultations, the overwhelming majority pointed out that the LRT wasn't "that" much faster than the bus or an enhanced bus service. Solutions/feedback was given such as cutting stops to increase the speed and running the 85 bus for local stops. More grade separation at major intersections. TTC and the city wouldn't hear it...so yeah, people didn't like the project.

 

[nfitz]

When officials had public consultations, the overwhelming majority pointed out that the LRT wasn't "that" much faster than the bus or an enhanced bus service.

And yet it is faster than the bus. And even faster than instead extending the subway.

Note that this is AM peak, using 40-minutes from Morningside to Don Mills of 40 minutes. It's scheduled as 49 minutes at PM peak - if it's on time.

 

[Cobra]

ss

And yet it is faster than the bus. And even faster than instead extending the subway.

Note that this is AM peak, using 40-minutes from Morningside to Don Mills of 40 minutes. It's scheduled as 49 minutes at PM peak - if it's on time.

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But analyze this from their point of you.

Does 8 minutes difference between LRT and bus warrant such an expensive project?
Does 8 minutes difference between LRT and bus warrants all the road disruptions and further paralyzing Sheppard Avenue East?
Wouldn't a proper BRT be able to reduce that 8 minutes gap?

People actually preferred the Sheppard line to be extended further East and keep the bus. That's 2 Minutes differences in bus service without disruptive work on Sheppard East except at the site of the new stations. It was clear that they had an agenda with Sheppard East and people got hostile to the idea.

Instead of telling people that they just don't understand and they will never get the subway, they should have listened to the feedback and cut a few stops while running local buses. Why not add some grade separation at major intersection to increase the reliability of the line and further increase the speed? If that 8 minutes gap became 15 minutes, It would be either under construction right now or in service. But they were too busy acting like they knew better than everyone else.

The LRT itself wasn't a bad idea, but it was poorly planned and sold to the population. Sorry but subway + bus made way more sense to me and most people in the area than 100% LRT the way it was designed.

 

[nfitz]

But analyze this from their point of you.

Does 8 minutes difference between LRT and bus warrant such an expensive project?
Does 8 minutes difference between LRT and bus warrants all the road disruptions and further paralyzing Sheppard Avenue East?
Wouldn't a proper BRT be able to reduce that 8 minutes gap?

8-minutes was the then-current AM peak travel time. It's 17 minutes for PM peak.

Remember that the whole point of Transit City was to deal with the forecast deterioration of travel times by 2031. Traffic on Sheppard East is forecast to get significantly worse, if nothing is done.

Why not add some grade separation at major intersection to increase the reliability of the line and further increase the speed?

That won't make much difference. It's not the intersections that make the difference - it's the stops.

But they were too busy acting like they knew better than everyone else.

What are you talking about? This was discussed extensively in the EA process, last decade.

 

[Cobra]

8-minutes was the then-current AM peak travel time. It's 17 minutes for PM peak.

Remember that the whole point of Transit City was to deal with the forecast deterioration of travel times by 2031. Traffic on Sheppard East is forecast to get significantly worse, if nothing is done.

The time difference is a best case scenario. Also, people were puzzled about the city not considering a combo of BRT and subway or enhance LRT with local stops provided by bus. But they wanted their project and rejected everything else. You're having the exact same attitude. You're adamant that this is the best project but you refuse to recognized that the LRT could and should have been enhanced for greater speed.

That won't make much difference. It's not the intersections that make the difference - it's the stops.

And they refused to consider cutting stops to speed up the line because they didn't want to run a parallel bus service. In retrospect, such a minor modification could have made a huge difference between people accepting the project or flat out reject it. Do you still maintain that they were right to act the way they did or do you agree that in the bigger scheme of things, maybe still running the 85 bus and cutting stops would have avoided a whole lot of mess and drama?

What are you talking about? This was discussed extensively in the EA process, last decade.

My point was that they didn't care about people's input.

 

[OneCity]

You have to take into account the slight loss of time and extra inconvenience for those transferring for bus to LRT to subway who previously went bus to subway. Especially West of McCowan. Elderly, Handicapped, Parents with young kids not much savings and not an improvement in convenience.

I can understand some support and slight time savings from East of McCowan, but even then the bus is not too bad on that side to begin with. But for those who now have to take and extra transfer in their commute, it makes little sense.

 

[nfitz]

The time difference is a best case scenario.

Exactly, can you imagine the worst-case scenario!

But they wanted their project and rejected everything else. You're having the exact same attitude. You're adamant that this is the best project but you refuse to recognized that the LRT could and should have been enhanced for greater speed.

I don't know where you are getting this. Read my comments further back in the thread. I advocated both for less stops, and extending the subway to Victoria Park. It seems to me you've come into this without a full awareness of what has been discussed in this thread.

You have to take into account the slight loss of time and extra inconvenience for those transferring for bus to LRT to subway who previously went bus to subway.

I believe that's taken into allowance in the figure. At this point though, I'll re-iterate what I said only last decade and that we should be able to find a vehicle that can both operate on the surface LRT section, and in the existing subway tunnel, without having to do massive modifications.

 

[salsa]

Hence my point I keep mentioning over and over.

When officials had public consultations, the overwhelming majority pointed out that the LRT wasn't "that" much faster than the bus or an enhanced bus service. Solutions/feedback was given such as cutting stops to increase the speed and running the 85 bus for local stops. More grade separation at major intersections. TTC and the city wouldn't hear it...so yeah, people didn't like the project.

These residents should be careful what they wish for when they call for removing a bunch of stops, unless they really prefer to be relegated to a parallel bus that would run every 30 minutes. Just ask anyone who lives along the Sheppard subway corridor who is not close to any station, and see how well served they are by the 85 bus.

It's interesting that few people complain about the speed and number of stops on the Finch LRT or Crosstown East extension, yet the same form of transit on Sheppard is not good enough.

 

[Cobra]

It's interesting that few people complain about the speed and number of stops on the Finch LRT or Crosstown East extension, yet the same form of transit on Sheppard is not good enough.

Doesn't make their comments any less valid. Their comments and feedbacks were very reasonable but they got totally ignored, which allowed local politicians and mayor candidates to take the political football and ran with it in the opposite direction, sometime entrenched in extreme positions.

All I'm saying, pointing fingers at residents is unfair to a degree. There's not enough figure pointing towards those who's responsibility was to gather consensus around the project and be open to modifications if they were reasonable, otherwise, what's the point of public consultations?

 

[nfitz]

There's not enough figure pointing towards those who's responsibility was to gather consensus around the project and be open to modifications if they were reasonable, otherwise, what's the point of public consultations?

There's been endless finger-pointing here. I don't see the point of it continuing. Point made, now stop repeating ancient history endlessly.