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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

You mean like York, North York, East York, Etobicoke, and downtown have done?
yes but north York and etobicoke are getting LRTs built as well. You're acting like scarborough isn't getting their bloor extension to STC which can be extended in the future to Sheppard. Why is it such a hardship for Scarborough to get both a subway and a lrt. Instead everything built in scarborough has to be subway?
 
You're certain of that because...



Remember how people said that about the SRT? And yet here it is, thirty years later, still on its own and running under capacity during rush hour because the TTC can't reliably keep six of their seven trainsets working.

The same SRT technology is working great in Vancouver. They just added an extension, the Evergreen Line.

Its not the technology its how it was maintained (or not at all) by the TTC.

He's certain because tunneling is almost always by far the most expensive option with transit, 9 times out of 10.

If you honestly need to see the figures for proof of the difference in cost between digging a tunnel 10km vs buying some custom trainsets with high level doors, slightly different gauge, and contact shoes for a third rail... ok then....
 
The same SRT technology is working great in Vancouver. They just added an extension, the Evergreen Line.

Its not the technology its how it was maintained (or not at all) by the TTC.

He's certain because tunneling is almost always by far the most expensive option with transit, 9 times out of 10.

If you honestly need to see the figures for proof of the difference in cost between digging a tunnel 10km vs buying some custom trainsets with high level doors, slightly different gauge, and contact shoes for a third rail... ok then....

And tunneling could be even more of a factor if there are any geological issues like we have seen on the SSE and stops are going to be 300M each, At that point we could see important subway stops disappear and that that alone is reason to look deeper into the actual costs of an LRT conversion
 
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Im confused to why? Sheppard residents are basically demanding a subway or a costly conversion. Finch on the other hand could be extended for far less money and would help malvern riders get to the yonge line just as well. It sure seems like scarborough says it wants transit but only a particular form of transit.

It will be just as costly to build a Finch LRT stretching from Humber College to Morningside Hts though. If the Keele-Humber stretch is costing at the very least $1.2 billion alone, multiply that by five to get the ballpark figure for a Finch Cosstown. If serving all of Finch corridor is the goal; it'd make far more sense to just extend the Finch Hydro Corridor BRT right across the City, with the buses dipping down to Finch at key points if need be (Malvern Town Ctr, McCowan, Warden, Seneca, Old Cummer GO, Finch Stn, Jane... dedicated bus lanes west of Norfinch), and regular transfers at the other connecting bus routes.
 
Is it worth the steep cost of designing, building and maintaining a one-of-a-kind system? There are also the reliability problems that those sort of systems get. Streetcar switches for example: they're unreliable because they were custom made for Toronto and nowhere else, so whenever a part breaks the TTC has to find someone who will make it on-demand.
The current streetcar switches are only being used with the legacy network the LRT will have ones that are currently being used on LRT lines elsewhere. The TTC does plan to upgrade the switches the next time they need to ugrade the trakwork which wil be in about 10 yeras time by then all of the CLRVS and ALRVs will be gone from service as they will be to old to maintain.
 
It will be just as costly to build a Finch LRT stretching from Humber College to Morningside Hts though. If the Keele-Humber stretch is costing at the very least $1.2 billion alone, multiply that by five to get the ballpark figure for a Finch Cosstown. If serving all of Finch corridor is the goal; it'd make far more sense to just extend the Finch Hydro Corridor BRT right across the City, with the buses dipping down to Finch at key points if need be (Malvern Town Ctr, McCowan, Warden, Seneca, Old Cummer GO, Finch Stn, Jane... dedicated bus lanes west of Norfinch), and regular transfers at the other connecting bus routes.

Is there a reason that LRT could not be put in the hydro corridor?
 
Is there a reason that LRT could not be put in the hydro corridor?
I dont like replying to you without "evidence." But didnt the TTC do studies to show that in the west at least the lines would be not only out of peoples way but that the travel time to get to them would negate their speed advantages. Besides if "Nearly 70 per cent of all TTC trips that begin in Scarborough end in Scarborough, " as Global news and other reports indicate then shouldn't we be planning transit for people to have easy access to things on the corridors which people travel or are we only concerned about the speed for the "Fewer than 1 in 8 TTC riders (who) go from a Scarborough stop to downtown Toronto" http://globalnews.ca/news/1626754/scarborough-transit-users-are-close-to-home-commuters/
 
Besides if "Nearly 70 per cent of all TTC trips that begin in Scarborough end in Scarborough, " as Global news and other reports indicate then shouldn't we be planning transit for people to have easy access to things on the corridors which people travel or are we only concerned about the speed for the "Fewer than 1 in 8 TTC riders (who) go from a Scarborough stop to downtown Toronto"

I've never understood what the point of this statistic is. If very few people are taking transit from Scarborough to the rest of the city, and a lot of people are driving from Scarborough to the rest of the city, the logical deduction is that public transit within Scarborough is just fine (in other words, the Eglinton East LRT is low-priority), and what needs to be improved is the area's connection to the rest of Toronto.

Anyways, Scarborough is one quarter of Toronto's area. I think that you'd get a similar 70% figure for any given quarter of Toronto. A lot of people live close to where they work, a lot of students take short transit trips, and a lot of people use the TTC to run errands in their neighbourhood.

Is there a reason that LRT could not be put in the hydro corridor?

People will be a lot less likely to take it if it's out of the way and invisible from the main street. The LRT itself might be a bit faster, but the time that a lot of passengers will spend walking 15 minutes away from Finch completely negates that benefit.
 
I've never understood what the point of this statistic is. If very few people are taking transit from Scarborough to the rest of the city, and a lot of people are driving from Scarborough to the rest of the city, the logical deduction is that public transit within Scarborough is just fine

If this is the conclusion you draw, then you've either never taken transit in Scarborough, or are being intentionally obtuse. Probably the latter.
 
If this is the conclusion you draw, then you've either never taken transit in Scarborough, or are being intentionally obtuse.

The conclusion I draw from that statistic is that it doesn't mean anything. Transit expansion is supposed to improve existing trips, and it's also supposed to create opportunities for new ridership. Both the SSE and the proposed LRT alternative do one of those really well and the other very poorly.

There are only two possible reasons to cite that statistic. One is that you think the figure is too high and you want to focus on making more destinations reachable by transit. The other is that you think the figure is so high that there's no point in improving connections to the city. Neither of those is right in my opinion.
 
Is there a reason that LRT could not be put in the hydro corridor?
People will be a lot less likely to take it if it's out of the way and invisible from the main street. The LRT itself might be a bit faster, but the time that a lot of passengers will spend walking 15 minutes away from Finch completely negates that benefit.
The hydro corridor was shot down with Transit City - which greatly prioritized stops on Finch compared to speed. In hindsight (and foresight for those who were paying attention back in 2008-2010), most people would have preferred the speed of the Hydro Corridor LRT, however it would have required some buses on Finch to serve seniors, etc.
For most of North York, the corridor is 400m north of Finch, which would likely take about 450s to walk (at 0.9 m/s or 3.2km/h, 2.0mph), or about 7.5 minutes.
And at many of the concession roads (Keele, Yonge, Leslie, Don Mills), more pedestrian would likely prefer the northern alignment.
 
There are only two possible reasons to cite that statistic. One is that you think the figure is too high and you want to focus on making more destinations reachable by transit. The other is that you think the figure is so high that there's no point in improving connections to the city. Neither of those is right in my opinion.

The purpose of that statistic is to assign priority to transit investments. It's to say it's better to use the limited funding to help the 70% than the 30%.
 
Most people would have preferred the speed of the Hydro Corridor LRT

I think this is nonsense to be honest. I don't know anyone who would prefer to walk 15 more minutes so their LRT trip will be five minutes faster.

The purpose of that statistic is to assign priority to transit investments. It's to say it's better to use the limited funding to help the 70% than the 30%.

And again, what you're saying is purely subjective. There's no reason why it's indisputably better to invest in serving that 70% than to invest in serving the people who currently don't take transit because trips to the rest of the city are painfully slow and cumbersome. Ideally, transit investments should be made in a way that balances both of those priorities.
 
People will be a lot less likely to take it if it's out of the way and invisible from the main street.

Line 2 doesn't run right under Danforth. People still take it. I don't get this line of thinking, if that is what the planners are arguing.

But didnt the TTC do studies to show that in the west at least the lines would be not only out of peoples way but that the travel time to get to them would negate their speed advantages.

I recall reading something like that. But I don't recall seeing numbers in how much they would save. And I think that's relevant. Because I think, they would save enough to effectively be able to reach Morningside.

The LRT itself might be a bit faster, but the time that a lot of passengers will spend walking 15 minutes away from Finch completely negates that benefit.

For most of Scarborough, it's about 1km to Finch. That's 12.5 mins using the standard 80m per minute. 1o mins for most people. But that also means Steeles is within 15-20 mins walk and McNicoll Ave would be right beside the LRT in Scarborough. Of course, a lot the feeder traffic would coming on buses.

In North York, the LRT would only be about 500m from Finch. That's 5 mins to walk.

I get why Finch itself is attractive. But I do wonder if anybody looked at the cost savings. Are they substantial enough that we could get to Morningside. If so, putting it a 10 min walk away might be something more people are willing to put up with.
 
The hydro corridor was shot down with Transit City - which greatly prioritized stops on Finch compared to speed. In hindsight (and foresight for those who were paying attention back in 2008-2010), most people would have preferred the speed of the Hydro Corridor LRT, however it would have required some buses on Finch to serve seniors, etc.
For most of North York, the corridor is 400m north of Finch, which would likely take about 450s to walk (at 0.9 m/s or 3.2km/h, 2.0mph), or about 7.5 minutes.
And at many of the concession roads (Keele, Yonge, Leslie, Don Mills), more pedestrian would likely prefer the northern alignment.

I think the Hydro corridor would be better utilized for some kind of "express" service, like GO-ALRT envisioned.

Could be as simple as BRT lanes for GO Buses, much like whats already in the Hydro corridor for the TTC York bus already, or the missisauga transitway

30517404143_deba0215e8.jpg


But I think the corridor would be best utilized with express service that just has intermodal stops at the new Spadina Finch West subway station, the Barrie Line, Finch Subway station on the Yonge Line, Old Cummer GO station on the Richmond Hill Line, and the new Finch GO RER/Smarttrack station. I'm sure there would be other important stops too, but my point is that it would be best used for an express BRT service where the bus could leave the corridor and bring people to specific and important stops.
 

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