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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...-controversial-scarborough-subway-debate.html

There must be a delay. Broken record article, broken record special interest group. Nothing to offer to but the same old, industrial transfer line with a couple extra stops.

Coffey, is that you?

I'm serious. A user named "coffey" fashioned himself as a Scarborough Champion who refused to listen to logic when he vociferously pushed for overbuild of transit into that region of the city.

He also pushed conspiracy theory and biggotry against people that actually prefer data, rationality and ridership to be used in planning of transit, or in general, anyone who he deemed as "elite" just because they don't live in Scarborough.

He was banned.

You sound strangely like him.
 
Coffey, is that you?

I'm serious. A user named "coffey" fashioned himself as a Scarborough Champion who refused to listen to logic when he vociferously pushed for overbuild of transit into that region of the city.

He also pushed conspiracy theory and biggotry against people that actually prefer data, rationality and ridership to be used in planning of transit, or in general, anyone who he deemed as "elite" just because they don't live in Scarborough.

He was banned.

You sound strangely like him.

If it helps you sleep. As OneCity I wont be engaging in personal attacks. Please be open and be kind.
 
He also pushed conspiracy theory and biggotry against people that actually prefer data, rationality and ridership to be used in planning of transit, or in general, anyone who he deemed as "elite" just because they don't live in Scarborough.

While he pushed the line, I don't see why this should be considered controversial. Even TTC officials say that part of the problem in their outreach is the fact that immigrants are less likely to come to presentations and such because they face language barriers, two hour commutes and longer hours at work.

So maybe not racism and bigotry. But there is undoubtedly a gap in advocacy. And what ticks me off is that many "advocates" seem to then write off these same residents as unconcerned with transit or civic issues. At minimum we're talking classism.

Living in the US temporarily at the moment while in grad school. For the yanks racism is abundant. And they talk about it. In Canada, the opposite. People refuse to accept that racism can happen, "because we're Canadian." I don't know what's worse. The racists or people who simply can't even fathom their own privilege.

Remember this Op-ed from the mayor?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...support-the-scarborough-subway-john-tory.html

He was slammed by Matlow for "lacking civility". Really? The mayor stands up for a part of the city and the working class immigrants who live there. And he "lacks civility"?

And if you don't think class and privilege matter, all I have to say is "Sorbara subway". That shows you what can be accomplished when your wealthy community can buy its way into Cabinet.
 
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While he pushed the line, I don't see why this should be considered controversial. Even TTC officials say that part of the problem in their outreach is the fact that immigrants are less likely to come to presentations and such because they face language barriers, two hour commutes and longer hours at work.

So maybe not racism and bigotry. But there is undoubtedly a gap in advocacy. And what ticks me off is that many "advocates" seem to then write off these same residents as unconcerned with transit or civic issues. At minimum we're talking classism.

Living in the US temporarily at the moment while in grad school. For the yanks racism is abundant. And they talk about it. In Canada, the opposite. People refuse to accept that racism can happen, "because we're Canadian." I don't know what's worse. The racists or people who simply can't even fathom their own privilege.

And if you don't think class and privilege matter, all I have to say is "Sorbara subway". That shows you what can be accomplished when your wealthy community can buy its way into Cabinet.
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...-controversial-scarborough-subway-debate.html

There must be a delay. Broken record article, broken record special interest group. Nothing to offer to but the same old, industrial transfer line with a couple extra stops.
Coffey, is that you?

I'm serious. A user named "coffey" fashioned himself as a Scarborough Champion who refused to listen to logic when he vociferously pushed for overbuild of transit into that region of the city.

He also pushed conspiracy theory and biggotry against people that actually prefer data, rationality and ridership to be used in planning of transit, or in general, anyone who he deemed as "elite" just because they don't live in Scarborough.

He was banned.

You sound strangely like him.
If it helps you sleep. As OneCity I wont be engaging in personal attacks. Please be open and be kind.
Hey, we all want the best for the city, all voices should be welcome. Echo chambers solve nothing:)
 
While he pushed the line, I don't see why this should be considered controversial. Even TTC officials say that part of the problem in their outreach is the fact that immigrants are less likely to come to presentations and such because they face language barriers, two hour commutes and longer hours at work.

So maybe not racism and bigotry. But there is undoubtedly a gap in advocacy. And what ticks me off is that many "advocates" seem to then write off these same residents as unconcerned with transit or civic issues. At minimum we're talking classism.

Living in the US temporarily at the moment. For them racism is abundant. In Canada, the opposite. People refuse to accept that racism can happen, "because we're Canadian." I don't know what's worse. The racists or people who simply can't even fathom their own privilege.

Not particularly interested in advocating reopening the issue at this particular stage but re-hashing it as a race/class issue is a false flag. No offense, but 2 hour commutes are also not unique to Scarborough - long travel time is an argument for speed, not mode. So what's Jane-Finch going to say now, that because they are racialized and economically disadvantaged, a subway is the only solution, context be damned (and let's face it, guess why the line is terminated at STC, with no talk about Malvern anymore beyond dreamy promises? Because there are also winners and losers in Scarborough)

Also, don't forget the elected representatives chosen by said group and the explicit unwillingness to compromise (and an equally explicit unwillingness to contribute themselves, in monetary or policy terms). Never ever forget that resources are limited - if you chose the highest cost option in one place, chances are it will be another racialized, disadvantaged community that will be penalized in order to enable that.

AoD
 
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No offense, but 2 hour commutes are also not unique to Scarborough - long travel time is an argument for speed, not mode.

And you have seen me here long argue that suburban rail needs to be prioritized. And you should have also seen that I have said that people are mixing up speed for mode and that's why this subway push is on.

What I criticized in my post is this idea that we should not at all talk about social issues in transit. Why the hell not? Apparently when Miller planned Transit City and targeted "priority neighbourhoods" that was acceptable, but if Tory says we're a little to reluctant to invest more than minimum in immigrant heavy Scarborough this is "lacking civility"? I am calling BS on the double standards when it comes to discussions.

That said, I will concede that building transit is more important that talking about the social justice issues at the moment. And since the focus should be on that, we should be focusing on metrics residents want (not metrics that Josh Matlow wants....as in his motion). So if too many voters are fed up with 2 hr commutes, focus on that issue over prioritizing a 20 year LRT effort that will not in the end substantially cut commute times.

The Scarborough subway would be an non-existent issue if we had regular suburban rail.
 
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What I criticized in my post is this idea that we should not at all talk about social issues in transit. Why the hell not? Apparently when Miller planned Transit City and targeted "priority neighbourhoods" that was acceptable, but if Tory says we're a little to reluctant to invest more than minimum in immigrant heavy Scarborough this is "lacking civility"

More money =/= better investment =/= better transit.
 
And you have seen me here long argue that suburban rail needs to be prioritized. And you should have also seen that I have said that people are mixing up speed for mode and that's why this subway push is on.

What I criticized in my post is this idea that we should not at all talk about social issues in transit. Why the hell not? Apparently when Miller planned Transit City and targeted "priority neighbourhoods" that was acceptable, but if Tory says we're a little to reluctant to invest more than minimum in immigrant heavy Scarborough this is "lacking civility"? I am calling BS on the double standards when it comes to discussions.

That said, I will concede that building transit is more important that talking about the social justice issues at the moment. And since the focus should be on that, we should be focusing on metrics residents want (not metrics that Josh Matlow wants....as in his motion). So if too many voters are fed up with 2 hr commutes, focus on that issue over prioritizing a 20 year LRT effort that will not in the end substantially cut commute times.

The Scarborough subway would be an non-existent issue if we had regular suburban rail.

The subway push is on the moment the discussion becomes about "respect" and not practical utility. Users may find speed paramount - the political chatter isn't about that. I mean, let's get real here - it's easy to get LRT up to speed - prioritize it at all cost over car traffic. Or even simply reusing the existing SRT alignment for BD. You'd be hung up on a petard for suggesting that - This suggests to me that while transit users may want a quicker commute, the broader electorate want something else. This is also why ST/GO RER solicited about as much enthusiasm as a wet towel. I mean, let's be honest with ourselves - which do you think will cause more issues for Tory or the various MPPs - cancelling the BD extension, or canning ST/RER? The latter is by far the faster option - but I bet you it is the less politically damaging one to can (just look - turning ST from an above ground subway service to 15 min/hour GO service raised nary a fury anywhere)

AoD
 
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The subway push is on the moment the discussion becomes about "respect" and not practical utility.

Dig deeper. Why do people feel they aren't respected over a mode of transit of all things?

Are you suggesting there are absolutely no concerns over economics, quality of life, etc.?

Also, why don't we see this same issue elsewhere? Nobody elsewhere is arguing that subway over LRT is a "matter of respect". It's because, in Toronto, one mode is seen as faster and more reliable than the other. LRT advocates will go on and on about more stops and all that. And they miss the mark on what people actually care about: getting where they want to go quickly.

There's a big world beyond Urban Toronto, Skyscraper Page, Reddit, etc. And the people you have to convince aren't on those boards. They are regular citizens who work hard, raise families and are fed up with long commutes. Tell them they are wrong to feel slighted, or the the constant inference that they are morons, is to me, an odd strategy that isn't likely to succeed. And it's offensive to the core idea of our democratic ideals: that voters understand self-interest.
 
Not particularly interested in advocating reopening the issue at this particular stage but re-hashing it as a race/class issue is a false flag. No offense, but 2 hour commutes are also not unique to Scarborough - long travel time is an argument for speed, not mode. So what's Jane-Finch going to say now, that because they are racialized and economically disadvantaged, a subway is the only solution, context be damned?

Also, don't forget the elected representatives chosen by said group and the explicit unwillingness to compromise (and an equally explicit unwillingness to contribute themselves, in monetary or policy terms). Never ever forget that resources are limited - if you chose the highest cost option in one place, chances are it will be another racialized, disadvantaged community that will be penalized in order to enable that.

AoD


I agree the issue is not race it is that we are growing a socio-economic disaster by not investing and building bridges to many parts of this City suburbs. "Low income" immigrants and "low income" Canadians happen to settle into these old decaying Toronto suburban areas of the City which have been neglected with no real plan to revitalize. Its clear that areas around transit are increasing attracting people with far greater wealth due to both investment and access. And this divide is becoming so large we have seen the issues creeping into our Politics.

The narrative that it cant be subway and LRT together is narrow. It can and should be both. More importantly we shouldn't be building base on "limited funds". The truth is we dont have a sliver of the necessary capital because there was never a funding plan. Its time to finalize that plan, build bridges, build based on growth and neglect. Even when we fund the next 4-5 unfunded projects. It doesn't end there.

The SSE is a solid starting point in Scarborough as long as we keep moving to fund the other projects thru-out the City. This should limit nauseating divisive debates over "limited" funds and let us focus on pressuring our Politicians on other issues and limit the need for such divisive Politics.
 
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Dig deeper. Why do people feel they aren't respected over a mode of transit of all things?

Are you suggesting there are absolutely no concerns over economics, quality of life, etc.?

Also, why don't we see this same issue elsewhere? Nobody elsewhere is arguing that subway over LRT is a "matter of respect". It's because, in Toronto, one mode is seen as faster and more reliable than the other. LRT advocates will go on and on about more stops and all that. And they miss the mark on what people actually care about: getting where they want to go quickly.

There's a big world beyond Urban Toronto, Skyscraper Page, Reddit, etc. And the people you have to convince aren't on those boards. They are regular citizens who work hard, raise families and are fed up with long commutes. Tell them they are wrong to feel slighted, or the the constant inference that they are morons, is to me, an odd strategy that isn't likely to succeed. And it's offensive to the core idea of our democratic ideals: that voters understand self-interest.

You just missed my point regarding the political palability between ST/RER and the BD extension. This isn't even about LRT anymore.

As to voters understand self-interest - I think we should be very, very careful with making that assumption in light of experiences elsewhere. Not to say that they don't at some level (and this isn't a class/race observation), but what's the self-interest in choosing in a way that end up, after 7 years, with nothing to show for it? Which voters? Whose self-interest? Transit-users may get screwed and having to play Waiting for Godot, but they aren't the only votes around - I'd say those who only drive, want to keep taxes low (no transit levies please) are relatively happy with the extended status quo, and guess what, they don't give a rat's a** about those waiting for the bus for a two hour commute even if they live in the same neighbourhood/borough.

AoD
 
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For the next TTC meeting on January 18, 2017. From this link.

Request to TTC to permit Durham Region Transit access to the transit hub at Scarborough Town Centre (submitted by TTC Chair J. Colle on behalf of Councillor P. Ainslie)

Recommendation
That the Toronto Transit Commission permit Durham Region Transit access to the transit hub at Scarborough Town Centre (STC).

For the purposes of transporting passengers to and from Durham Region and the Scarborough Town Centre (STC).

Summary
The City of Pickering has expressed that it would be beneficial to implement interregional transit to allow Pickering buses to transport residents to and from the Scarborough Town Centre.

In our efforts to minimize congestion it would be valuable for both cities to allow public transit to the irrespective municipalities to provide residents with a choice to travel to and from the Scarborough Civic Centre and Durham. This would ease the number of vehicles on our roads and create a positive relationship with our neighbours.

Permitting Durham Region Transit access to the transit hub at Scarborough Town Centre would benefit both parties with no cost to the Toronto Transit Commission.
 
Dig deeper. Why do people feel they aren't respected over a mode of transit of all things?

Are you suggesting there are absolutely no concerns over economics, quality of life, etc.?

Also, why don't we see this same issue elsewhere? Nobody elsewhere is arguing that subway over LRT is a "matter of respect". It's because, in Toronto, one mode is seen as faster and more reliable than the other. LRT advocates will go on and on about more stops and all that. And they miss the mark on what people actually care about: getting where they want to go quickly.

There's a big world beyond Urban Toronto, Skyscraper Page, Reddit, etc. And the people you have to convince aren't on those boards. They are regular citizens who work hard, raise families and are fed up with long commutes. Tell them they are wrong to feel slighted, or the the constant inference that they are morons, is to me, an odd strategy that isn't likely to succeed. And it's offensive to the core idea of our democratic ideals: that voters understand self-interest.

Do a race with someone. Spadina to Union. One use the subway, one use the streetcar. Then switch. One is faster.
 

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