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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

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Ben Spurr@BenSpurr
1 hour ago
.@reggcohn predicts that the Scarborough subway extension will be stopped after 2018 provincial and city elections. https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...nd-the-scarborough-subways-dead-end-cohn.html

The timeline for this turnaround is far off in the future: Not until after the next provincial and municipal elections — with the political risk safely behind them — will we see the premier and mayor of the day come to their senses and reverse course.

The subway extension does have about $600 million in additional costs that have not been bundled into the $3.35 Billion estimate. This is in addition to cost escalations of up to 30% that we've been warned about. Thus, it is highly probable that the SSE will blow it's original funding envelope of $3.56 Billion. Council will at some point need to approve this additional spending, but City Staff say that the additional spending related to the extension will not be up to Council vote until at least Late 2018, which would be after the provincial election and likely after the municipal election (and with the project already more than a year behind schedule, and the TTC warning other factors are likely to add further delay, I'd say it's more likely than not it comes after the municipal election).

Is this the point where Tory, Wynne/Brown and company draw the line in the sand, and declare this extension will not be receiving additional funds? If they were really planning to cancel the project, this is when it will happen. Only time will tell.
 
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If by some luck they choose to revert back to the original LRT would they have to do a revised EA or could they start construction quickly? I feel like no matter what happens Scarborough will be screwed for the foreseeable future.
 
Here's the latest from TorStar:
Most Scarborough residents will be on the bus longer with subway option, analysis finds
One-stop subway extension “doesn’t really address any real problem except the re-election of the mayor,” says transit consultant.

By Jennifer Pagliaro City Hall reporter
Mon., March 27, 2017

Building a one-stop subway extension in Scarborough will leave most residents facing longer bus rides compared with the light-rail alternative, according to data analyzed by Ryerson University researchers.

Despite subway advocates’ claims of substantial time savings — claims that have not, to date, been backed by evidence — the Ryerson analysis shows most transit users travelling to the proposed Scarborough Town Centre subway station would on average spend longer on the bus than they do today with the existing Scarborough RT and longer than if a seven-stop LRT were built instead.

A transit user travelling from the area near the previously proposed LRT stop at Sheppard Ave. East and Markham Rd. would have to travel an additional 19 minutes by bus with the subway plan compared with the LRT option.

Ryerson University associate professor Murtaza Haider, who specializes in transportation planning and statistical models, and research assistant Liam Donaldson used a standard transit planning method to calculate how long it would take a transit user to get between 123 different census tracts in Scarborough and the closest rapid transit station.

The researchers performed this analysis using federal census data and publicly available data from Google for three scenarios: with the existing SRT; with a previously planned seven-stop LRT that was to be fully funded by the province; and with the planned $3.35-billion one-stop subway extension.

They determined the average travel time by bus to the closest transit stop would be 20.5 minutes with the seven-stop LRT, 23.7 minutes with the existing SRT, and 27.3 minutes with the one-stop subway — meaning the average time spent on the bus with the subway option would be 6.8 minutes longer than with the LRT.

Individual commutes could be longer or shorter than the average times.

On average, a commuter would have to travel an additional 1.4 kilometres on the bus to get to the subway compared with the bus trip to the nearest LRT station.

“It is so obvious, but still one has to quantify it, so we quantified it even though we knew the answer,” Haider said. “When we quantified it we see that most Scarborough residents would experience an increase in their access commutes to the nearest rail transit station.”

City staff estimate that those using the six-kilometre subway extension to get between Scarborough Town Centre and west of Kennedy Station could save eight minutes compared with the existing SRT. That time saving, staff say, is a result of the quicker “express” subway ride and eliminating the transfer currently required at Kennedy station.

But those travel time savings are partly cancelled out by the additional time the average transit user will have to spend on the bus to get to the subway.

The Star spoke with two veteran transportation planners who vouched for Haider’s expertise.

For Scarborough’s more than 622,000 residents, there is little to gain with a subway, said transportation consultant and former senior TTC planner David Crowley.

“It doesn’t really address any real problem except the re-election of the mayor,” said Crowley, who helped create the Transportation Tomorrow survey that serves as a guide for the city’s transit plans.

Any claims of significant travel time savings with the subway are false, transportation consultant and transit historian Ed Levy told the Star.

“It’s ludicrous,” Levy said of the claim. “The way the Scarborough subway is being proposed now, it will serve very few of the people it needs to serve and result in an overall increase in travel time rather than any savings.”

Levy noted the subway would do little to help residents travel within the region.

[...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...longer-with-subway-option-analysis-finds.html

Cue the knee-jerk reactionaries defending the indefensible...
 
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They determined the average travel time by bus to the closest transit stop would be 20.5 minutes with the seven-stop LRT, 23.7 minutes with the existing SRT, and 27.3 minutes with the one-stop subway — meaning the average time spent on the bus with the subway option would be 6.8 minutes longer than with the LRT.

City staff estimate that those using the six-kilometre subway extension to get between Scarborough Town Centre and west of Kennedy Station could save eight minutes compared with the existing SRT. That time saving, staff say, is a result of the quicker “express” subway ride and eliminating the transfer currently required at Kennedy station.

So for $3.5 Billion, the average Scarborough commuter will save a whopping 1 minute and 12 seconds. This is transformative for Scarborough. Finally delivering the transit Scarborough deserves.
 
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The subway extension does have about $600 million in additional costs that have not been bundled into the $3.35 Billion estimate. This is in addition to cost escalations of up to 30% that we've been warned about. Thus, it is highly probable that the SSE will blow it's original funding envelope of $3.56 Billion. Council will at some point need to approve this additional spending, but City Staff say that the additional spending related to the extension will not be up to Council vote until at least Late 2018, which would be after the provincial election and likely after the municipal election (and with the project already more than a year behind schedule, and the TTC warning other factors are likely to add further delay, I'd say it's more likely than not it comes after the municipal election).

Is this the point where Tory, Wynne/Brown and company draw the line in the sand, and declare this extension will not be receiving additional funds? If they were really planning to cancel the project, this is when it will happen. Only time will tell.


crazy idea here but why not have the 3 govts do a deal with the richest individuals in the gta. In exchange for donations to the TTC "charity" they can get tax exemption equal to what theyve contributed or tax exempt for XX years.
In this current situation, any way of getting dollars and cents is worth exploring even if it is shady.

Edit: also why not sell each station and all its building costs to the land developer for future stations that are projected to be adjacent to hubs. (who owns STC anyways?) As crappy as seeing that ghastly penguin logo on the VMC sign it may actually be a viable option to save some money.
 
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They determined the average travel time by bus to the closest transit stop would be 20.5 minutes with the seven-stop LRT, 23.7 minutes with the existing SRT, and 27.3 minutes with the one-stop subway — meaning the average time spent on the bus with the subway option would be 6.8 minutes longer than with the LRT.

City staff estimate that those using the six-kilometre subway extension to get between Scarborough Town Centre and west of Kennedy Station could save eight minutes compared with the existing SRT. That time saving, staff say, is a result of the quicker “express” subway ride and eliminating the transfer currently required at Kennedy station.

So for $3.5 Billion, the average Scarborough commuter will save a whopping 1 minute and 12 seconds. This is transformative for Scarborough. Finally delivering the transit Scarborough deserves.

Your missing a variable in your calculation. What about the time from the Scarborough Centre Station to Kennedy Station?

And what's up with the chart and line? How can A and B be both 7.3-7.4km, when B's line is 2x+ longer.
 
Oh hey, another garbage study. Yes, a lot of people are going to spend less time on the bus if the LRT is built, but they're going to spend about as much extra time on the LRT because the LRT is longer than the current SRT. That's not really a benefit - 5 minutes of bus and 20 minutes of LRT isn't any different than 10 minutes of bus and 15 minutes of LRT.

Studies need to look at entire trips, not individual segments of trips.
 
The Star was all in on a witch hunt of the best mayor ever. Now they are trying to destroy his legacy and get revenge on Scarborough. Clearly they must be wrong.
 
Now they brought ryerson into their shinanigans. Don't worry all the experts will show how these are all lies

Now we just need Eric Miller to jump in, issue a rebuttal and let the sparks fly. I think he would know a few things about garbage studies. Speaking of the amigos:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...-but-experts-find-faults-in-funding-1.2806075

On a more serious note - so, all else being equal (nevermind the ride quality of LRT vs. buses), you basically have a plan that generates no savings in travel time (because we need to take into account the whole trip) for a good chunk of the population for how much more money?

AoD
 
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Ben Spurr@BenSpurr
1 hour ago
.@reggcohn predicts that the Scarborough subway extension will be stopped after 2018 provincial and city elections. https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...nd-the-scarborough-subways-dead-end-cohn.html

The timeline for this turnaround is far off in the future: Not until after the next provincial and municipal elections — with the political risk safely behind them — will we see the premier and mayor of the day come to their senses and reverse course.

It could get cancelled by City Council but its unlikely. The Star is on there mission to provide hope for the mainly Downtown opposition faithful to contact councillors before this weeks vote

1. I don't think the Province will touch it as there is little financial benefit either way. If anything they win as the TTC will pay to operate and maintain.
2. If Tory is Mayor its unlikely he will change course and there will always be the fear of Ford coming in 2022 after council goes off the rails with the cancellation. Council would be even far worse than it is now
3. The escalating costs of LRT and delays required to study and redo the EA will be a big reason not to already. That will only be worse the longer we go

There are a few more Downtown ridings next year so Ive always seen this as a slim possibility. But I would also see this as the beginning of a new low for the next decade as things really begin to boil over. Cancelling the SSE wont provide the great savings or better outcome they believe they can achieve. Smarttrack is the bigger waste here as putting the subway above ground conflicts with this plan. As does the LRT which is another reason why Tory will not support.
 
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They left themselves with no out for anything face saving, like the modified Murray plan and now this is whole exercise is turning into the mistake on the cake.

AoD

1. Murray plan
2. Ford LRT to Eglinton plan

Both of these plans were far better than both the current SLRT and one stop subway plans
 

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