Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[salsa]

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...-controversial-scarborough-subway-debate.html

There must be a delay. Broken record article, broken record special interest group. Nothing to offer to but the same old, industrial transfer line with a couple extra stops.

You ignore the point of the complaint, which is about the process that lead to the subway decision. A process that was highly politicized and problematic in so many ways, the least of which were lack of facts and misleading information. Whether people agree or not with the subway or councillor Matlow's position, he is absolutely right to question it and get some real answers. The subway is still going ahead regardless, but the way it came about was not right no matter what side you are on. How utterly shameful that so many subway supporters don't have a shred of concern about the broken planning process at city hall, the lack of objective evidence involved in decision making, or about how much the damn thing will actually cost. In fact your wonderful Scarborough representatives will never be satisfied until they get the Sheppard subway as well, because damn the facts. Which is why almost every single one of them voted down this motion last month:

That City Council request the City Manager to determine the priority and scope of Toronto's infrastructure projects, to be funded in whole or in part with any new revenue tool(s), based on ridership/user projections, land-use patterns, most urgent need, density, future development potential, and other methods of assessment consistent with recognized urban planning principles, and report to the Executive Committee in the fourth quarter of 2017.


​

 

[kEiThZ]

Yeah but at some point you have to move forward even if it is less than ideal - unlike some, I know what my best interests are. Having said that, I am insistent those who make the decisions wear them and the rationale behind them.

AoD

The sarcasm wasn't meant to be directed at you, it'ts been a long day.

AoD

And people wonder why populism is on the rise....

 

[kEiThZ]

Whether people agree or not with the subway or councillor Matlow's position, he is absolutely right to question it and get some real answers.

Heck, I even agree with his push to get criteria based prioritization. The only problem was that he decided the public and the rest of Council shouldn't have a say in what those criteria should be.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And people wonder why populism is on the rise....

Why, because this someone who also has a 2 hour commute dared to call it what it is? I supppose I should be supporting calls for a ridiculous subway extension a certain councillor in my jurisdiction is thowing out there just because "[we] deserve it?" (common refrain of populist-inclined politicos), and presumably not only those in the east end knows what's one "best interests" are?

And then you also have another certain politician to the NW in a generally racialized and deprived, transit desert-y area saying that a current LRT in progress isn't good enough, only a subway line will do. What do you do about populism there then? Or are they so politically irrelevant (which lets face it, they are- poorly organized, so negatively viewed by the rest of the city that makes Scarborough look like Forest Hill) that their "best interests" can be safely contained and dismissed?

AoD

 

[rbt]

Do a race with someone. Spadina to Union. One use the subway, one use the streetcar. Then switch. One is faster.

And that has almost nothing to do with designs proposed in Scarborough.

Also, the SRT trains when new would have beat both for a similar path with a similar number of stops. They have a relative high acceleration curve.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

This is something Andy Byford claimed at a board meeting. Evaluated is just a shitshow for the media and EA. TTC and Metrolinx already made up their minds. We're just watching how this would play out.

Yes it's possible but they can't fit 5 sets of tracks in that space plus stations without buying land.

TTC/Council decided during the Karen Stintz era that reusing the SRT alignment for the BD extension is not a choice they wanted go to down. Having said that, there was serious work done on that possibility:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

With cost analysis, plans and more. But look at who generated that report...just saying.

Now fast forward 4 years - we are still dancing around a design that exceeded this estimate by 1/3 (at a minimum) and still haven't broken ground for anything (actually, even the report on the final alignment itself is delayed). All for one stop (minus however many on SRT). This, gentleman, is "best interest" at work. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am frankly ashamed at this outcome.

AoD

 

[smallspy]

It has always amazed me how the main argument for not upgrading the line to use newer ART/Innovia Stock, is one short curved section that can't dost more than 200 million to absolutely transform, yet somehow building a multi billion dollar extension is seen as logical.

Because even if it was modified, it still remains an orphan technology that relies on a sole-source of many materials for maintenance and replacement. It's as expensive to operate as a subway, but with far less maximum capacity.

Converting to LRT or subway would allow for a standardization of equipment and maintenance to the rest of the system, and would no longer require a reliance on a sole-source for most materials.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[jcam]

It can't be argued its orphaned technology....Innovia's are in service in Vancouver, Detroit, New York (JFK AirTrain), Bejing and Seoul.

That's no different than the TR's sharing some components with the rest of Bombardier's Movias.

I'd argue that the lifecycle (capital and maintenance) cost of putting a separate rolling stock on existing infrastructure would be less expensive than new (but standardized) rolling stock on NEW infrastructure.

The problem is that the City and TTC don't make capital decisions based on comparative lifecycle costing of both infrastructure and rolling stock. If you matched the LRTs on Eglinton, they're much heavier because they're designed for mixed traffic...over designed for a completed grade separated line like Line 3.

 

[WislaHD]

And if you don't think class and privilege matter, all I have to say is "Sorbara subway". That shows you what can be accomplished when your wealthy community can buy its way into Cabinet.

Should we start referring to the Scarborough subway as the "Duguid Subway"?

 

[micheal_can]

And that has almost nothing to do with designs proposed in Scarborough.

One o those designs was extension of the Crosstown to STC. It would be no different than the Spadina streetcar line. It has it's own ROW, but it still has to deal with street lights.

 

[Cobra]

There's no political appetite to shutdown the SRT for over 3-4 years and put all those people in shuttle buses the entire time with the TTC stuck with the inflated costs (money they clearly don't have). So can we stop with the speculation over using the SRT Corridor?

At least the big bend is out but reality check...that subway is happening. Can we go back to "planning, design" mode?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One o those designs was extension of the Crosstown to STC. It would be no different than the Spadina streetcar line. It has it's own ROW, but it still has to deal with street lights.

That design was never considered seriously - Metrolinx did not want EC to STC with an at-grade section in mixed traffic.

There's no political appetite to shutdown the SRT for over 3-4 years and put all those people in shuttle buses the entire time with the TTC stuck with the inflated costs (money they clearly don't have). So can we stop with the speculation over using the SRT Corridor?

At least the big bend is out but reality check...that subway is happening. Can we go back to "planning, design" mode?

Well, is there a political appetite for an extra billion dollars or two in spending? I mean, we actually have that money? Like I've said, by all means move ahead at this stage (because the alternative is what), but I sure as hell want to see to it that someone wears these decisions.

In any case, yeah, I mean the report is *still* delayed right? Booker prize is coming up.

AoD

 

[ShonTron]

That design was never considered seriously - Metrolinx did not want EC to STC with an at-grade section in mixed traffic.



Well, is there a political appetite for a extra billion dollars or two in spending? I mean, we actually have that money? Like I've said, by all means move ahead at this stage (because the alternative is what), but I sure as hell want to see to it that someone wears these decisions.

In any case, yeah, I mean the report is *still* delayed right? Booker prize is coming up.

AoD

Booker Prize? More like the Hugo Awards. Or even more likely, the Stephen Leacock Award for Canadian Humour.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

There's no political appetite to shutdown the SRT for over 3-4 years and put all those people in shuttle buses the entire time with the TTC stuck with the inflated costs (money they clearly don't have). So can we stop with the speculation over using the SRT Corridor?

At least the big bend is out but reality check...that subway is happening. Can we go back to "planning, design" mode?

You oppose the SRT corridor for the subway? It would be much better then McCowan.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Booker Prize? More like the Hugo Awards.

Yeah, all we need are the sad puppies and rapid puppies.

AoD