Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
crs1026
Senior Member
It's a little broader than that. It exists to assure that an appropriate level of technical diligence has been done in certain areas, and that the results of this diligence have been disclosed and documented, and input sought from those affected.
It so happens that the Aboriginal community has used the courts successfully to enforce the 'duty to consult', so yes the authors of a TPAP will take pains to ensure that base is covered. But any other key stakeholder could challenge the project along similar lines.... environmental impacts and cultural heritage impacts being a couple of prime areas.
The Davenport Diamond is a good example of how thr TPAP forced dialogue and reexamination of a project as originally conceived. I don't know how many Aboriginal members joined that discussion, but it was a lot broader a community response than just an Aboriginal issue.
- Paul
jje1000
Senior Member
TPAP here should be a local community-first sort of engagement, with an underlying aboriginal acknowledgement- and I think it'll be more like this as compared to say, a project near the Six Nations.
That being said, it's still an overly lengthy process- Montreal's REM is already finalizing their RFP choices.
That being said, it's still an overly lengthy process- Montreal's REM is already finalizing their RFP choices.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I feel like the lengthy TPAP process does the city more harm than good. It makes it far too likely those proposals will be canceled in a change of government.
WislaHD
Superstar
I too fear that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The Montreal R.E.M. proposal started years after the DRL and they're already in the RFP/RFQ. Meanwhile DRL TPAP won't complete until 2019 at the earliest, which is also presumably the earliest the DRL RFP/RFQ can commence. The slow bureaucracy seriously harms our ability to complete these projects.
Nevermind the implications of cost escalations over time. We're throwing away hundreds of millions of dollars with our slow TPAP process.
Nevermind the implications of cost escalations over time. We're throwing away hundreds of millions of dollars with our slow TPAP process.
Voltz
Senior Member
Fortunately I do think the City/TTC will be building the Relief Line, not Metrolinx who wastes two years with their Alternative Financing Procurement nonsense.
crs1026
Senior Member
I would say the TPAP is time well spent, on the assumption that it is delving into areas that truly matter and that, if bypassed, could turn into expensive 'oops'es down the road.
Considering that this will be a deep bore, we can't know too much about soil and hydrogeological attributes. A shorter TPAP could just translate into a longer design process since this data will have to be collected and analysed anyways. I don't expect that the botanical and sociological studies will be critical path to the TPAP. Even the more sensitive areas eg the Don River are pretty well studied at this point. The consultations have been well handled to date and haven't gone amuck. They won't bog this project down.
I don't sense a 'science fair' is happening here. The limiting factor to this project is funding, and that falls squarely on a City Council that still hasnt fully come to terms with the price of the Scarborough Subway, the ECLRT extensions, and Smarttrack. A 2019 procurement date is probably realistic, ie after the next round of elections.
The elections will be an interesting opportunity to hold candidates' feet to the fire on this project..... those who feel strongly need to get their political oars in the water. Pro-DRL presence in every councillor and mayoral debate and town hall meeting should be the goal.
- Paul
Considering that this will be a deep bore, we can't know too much about soil and hydrogeological attributes. A shorter TPAP could just translate into a longer design process since this data will have to be collected and analysed anyways. I don't expect that the botanical and sociological studies will be critical path to the TPAP. Even the more sensitive areas eg the Don River are pretty well studied at this point. The consultations have been well handled to date and haven't gone amuck. They won't bog this project down.
I don't sense a 'science fair' is happening here. The limiting factor to this project is funding, and that falls squarely on a City Council that still hasnt fully come to terms with the price of the Scarborough Subway, the ECLRT extensions, and Smarttrack. A 2019 procurement date is probably realistic, ie after the next round of elections.
The elections will be an interesting opportunity to hold candidates' feet to the fire on this project..... those who feel strongly need to get their political oars in the water. Pro-DRL presence in every councillor and mayoral debate and town hall meeting should be the goal.
- Paul
Hopkins123
Senior Member
Difference, the Liberals need Quebec's votes while they take Toronto's votes for granted.
jje1000
Senior Member
The Provincial Liberals in Quebec are largely funding this via Caisse, and expediated REM's progress.
The Federal Liberals chipped in some money for REM and the Relief Line, the difference is that the city and Ontario Liberals are taking their sweet time.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I'm not at all worried about the federal Liberals. It's the provincial Liberals I'm worried about. They're habitually delaying implementation of their infrastructure promises. Everything from GO expansion, to GO RER, to the construction of each one of the Transit City LRT lines. Every step of the way they have an excuse for why it can't happen now. I can't say I'd take any commitment from them to build the DRL particularly seriously.
Complaining about the provincial Liberals on the transit file? The same Liberals that have funded the biggest expansion of transit in Ontario's history with more to come. Really?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
They have, but TheTigerMaster has a point about the rather lack of speed of implementation. The only one that is getting implemented quickly is GO RER.
I think a lot of that blame can go more towards Ford era municipal politics than the Liberals, but still. There have been huge delays on the York Region BRT projects.
I believe the liberals delayed a lot of spending as long as possible to reduce deficits. spending is picking up now that they have balanced the budget again and have some spending room.
I think a lot of that blame can go more towards Ford era municipal politics than the Liberals, but still. There have been huge delays on the York Region BRT projects.
I believe the liberals delayed a lot of spending as long as possible to reduce deficits. spending is picking up now that they have balanced the budget again and have some spending room.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
No. Not the same Liberals that have funded the biggest transit expansion in Ontario's history; rather, the same Liberals that have mused about funding the biggest transit expansion in Ontario's history. Each of the three Toronto LRT lines have been delayed, with convinient excuses every time. GO RER, which should be approaching construction phase by now, is on hold, because the government is busy fiddling with hydrail (aka, yet another convenient excuse). GO rail enhancements (not RER) that were supposed to be rolling out by now our nowhere to be seen. York Region BRT projects are delayed and the 407 Transitway is also nowhere to be seen (which is why we a near useless subway station up there). This government talks a good game about building transit, but their track record for following through on those commitments in a remotely timely manner is dismal.
I don't believe these delays are nefarious in nature. As insert mentioned, it's probably to due with minimizing debt spending. But the fact of the matter is that this government isn't following through on their transit commitments, and they're putting transit expansion across the region at risk because of it. So excuse me if any potential DRL commitment from them doesn't mean much to me. I'll believe it when they've either handed the money over to the City, or signed the contracts to get the thing built.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
There are multiple RFPs being issued this year. Not sure why you think this.
You mean that all day service on Barrie and Stouffville? Wait a minute... They have already been implemented.
True. But happening. All are under construction.
It was never promised. There is literally no need for it right now as the 407 is always freeflow. It would likely slow transit speeds from today.
The projects that have seen real delays are the Toronto LRTs - largely from Ford's meddling. The Sheppard LRT is fully the liberals fault. Eglinton went full speed ahead after ford lost his battle for it to be underground. Finch was delayed by the liberals significantly to minimize spending in deficit years, but is now under construction.