Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I dunno, I feel as though Yonge Station (Bloor Line) could really use a second platform like what has been done at Union. Those existing platforms are dangerously narrow to be handling such crowds.

You do realize that the STC and Vaughan extensions are relief lines in their own right, right? The Spadina extension is intercepting passengers heading downtown from the west end prior to them reaching Yonge and likewise the north-soutth arm of the Danforth Line intercepts passengers from the east. Those passengers if met by the Phase 1 DRL at Pape, would be bypassing Bloor-Yonge - thus alleviating it.

This mentality that all other transit projects must stop indefinitely and use their prioritized funding to fund the DRL, rather than source it's own new funding, is precisely why there's no much anger and division in this city.

Actually, extending the lines (the modus operandi since what, BD) instead of building a new one from scratch is exactly why we are where we are right now. As if the MO for York U extension is about reliving Yonge! And we all know that SSE extension will exacerbate the condition at Y+B - because DRL isn't even proposed to go online then.

These extensions as "relief" projects are post-hoc justifications that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

AoD

 

[syn]

My concern is less with the transfer and more with the potential for growth. I guess it depends on the station spacing/locations.

By the time the 2nd phase happens, I get a feeling a subway will be the best option.

 

[salsa]

Good luck doing it while Y+B is still in full usage. It's like putting the cart (redoing the interchange) before the horse (DRL). It's been studied in the 80s and TTC got cold feet having to shut the station for 6 months for the works, why are we doing that again?

AoD

Even with the relief line, it's only a matter of time before the station is filled up again with new transit riders. Sooner or later it may have to be done.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Even with the relief line, it's only a matter of time before the station is filled up again with new transit riders. Sooner or later it may have to be done.

Eventually perhaps - but for council to bring it up now sound like trying to delay the inevitable.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

LRT North of Danforth may not be the worst idea in the world.

Given the density and ridership this line is likely to garner, it seems like a poor idea to introduce a transfer - though I can understand the rationale.

May I remind everyone that on opening day, the extension to Sheppard is anticipated to add 8,400 pphpd onto the Relief Line?

Might I also remind everyone that a primary goal of this line is to open up capacity on the Yonge Line, and that slowing down Relief Line travel times with the addition of a transfer and at-grade LRT will significantly diminish the Relief Line's capability of reducing demand on the Yonge Line.

The City has done extensive modelling on various option of Relief Line South. In those models, you can see how sensitive the Relief Line's ability to relieve the Yonge Line is on the time performance of the Relief Line. Even adding two minutes onto Relief Line trip times dramatically reduced the ability of the Relief Line to reduce demand on Yonge. What do you suppose will happen if you change this subway to a slower LRT + transfer?

(This is the worst idea in the world)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Guys relax, the motion is simply to consider as a possibility. It does not mean LRT is the new direction here. I'm sure once an analysis of Subway vs. LRT is done, subway will be a clear winner.
Sad about wasting staff's time and budget.

Do these council members not read the reports that have been produced on the matter? LRT vs subway has already been studied. Whatever report Staff produces should just refer Council to the Metrolinx YRNS. Staff are overburdened as is.

 

[pman]

Do these council members not read the reports that have been produced on the matter? LRT vs subway has already been studied. Whatever report Staff produces should just refer Council to the Metrolinx YRNS. Staff are overburdened as is.

Council members read reports? We're talking about a group of people whose entire political existence consists of rejecting expert opinion. I give you Mammo, JimmyK, Pasternak, Ford, Holyday, Tory, Shiner, Minnan-Wong, DiCiano and de Baeremaeker...planners of Toronto's future. Laugh or cry - your choice.

 

[44 North]

I still think it would be a good investment. The station is really cramped for the amount of people it serves.

yeah it's like a cramped club bathroom, and pretty much a disaster waiting to happen. But still, where do we draw the line. While we're redoing Y/B we may as well study redoing King, Queen, Dundas, and College stations. And I guess St George too. And to fix things even more we can add PSDs. Or we can add fare zones/distance-based fares, which should lower Line 1 ridership so it's not as problematic at those stations. Not to say improving Y/B (again) doesn't have merit. But I think we're well past the point of beating around the bush.

May I remind everyone that on opening day, the extension to Sheppard is anticipated to add 8,400 pphpd onto the Relief Line?

Might I also remind everyone that a primary goal of this line is to open up capacity on the Yonge Line, and that slowing down Relief Line travel times with the addition of a transfer and at-grade LRT will significantly diminish the Relief Line's capability of reducing demand on the Yonge Line.

The City has done extensive modelling on various option of Relief Line South. In those models, you can see how sensitive the Relief Line's ability to relieve the Yonge Line is on the time performance of the Relief Line. Even adding two minutes onto Relief Line trip times dramatically reduced the ability of the Relief Line to reduce demand on Yonge. What do you suppose will happen if you change this subway to a slower LRT + transfer?

(This is the worst idea in the world)

Can't say for certain cuz I didn't watch the meeting, but I think it's possible that by 'LRT up Don Mills' they may've genuinely meant a through-running extension of the RL...rather one done affordably using simpler stations and as much non-tunneled portions as possible. I mean, "LRT" has become a fairly useless catch-all term (which was more than apparent in the Line 3/SLRT debate).

However if they did in fact mean a separate line more or less identical to DMLRT, then we're pretty much back to where we were a decade ago. Not the end of the world, since like you said the modeling has been done and we know that replacing the DMLRT with an RL extension definitely has legs. So it wouldn't take long for the motion to be dropped and we move toward Med/Long RL.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I really wished the city came up with a comprehensive transit masterplan kind of the same way it has the zoning masterplan.

*cough* BIG MOVE *cough*

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

*cough* BIG MOVE *cough*

It wasn't a coherent plan - it's a let's take everyone's favourite pet project chop suey.

Toronto is truly riddled with scale politics problems.

AoD

 

[jcam]

And ideally it would be integrated with the zoning, as per Neptis' report.

There's movement afoot to make that happen.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Do not post proposals that have no bearing on the current scheme.

MoD

 

[Leo_Chan]

Is anyone baffled by the motion to even consider a comparison between the Relief Line (North/South) and the Sheppard East/West Subway Extension? It really shouldn't be a question that Sheppard should be a Phase 2 or 3 project. "Sheppard Relief Line"... what relief will it provide? I don't even know. I'm glad the comparison was deleted.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

It wasn't a coherent plan - it's a let's take everyone's favourite pet project chop suey.

If that were 100% true, the Scarborough Subway would have been on there.

There was lots of analysis and consultation on the Big Move, and it created a regional blueprint. It should be the blueprint that Toronto follows. It's not perfect, and it is open to revisions. But it's a somewhat coherent master plan, and that should guide our work. But Toronto politicians are dragging us away from that blueprint, and inserting their pet projects into it.

As it relates to the Relief Line, the corridors for Relief Line-Short and -Long are on there. The transition between subway and LRT is at Pape/Bloor though, when we're talking about having it at Don Mills-Sheppard.

 

[OneCity]

Guys relax, the motion is simply to consider as a possibility. It does not mean LRT is the new direction here. I'm sure once an analysis of Subway vs. LRT is done, subway will be a clear winner.
Sad about wasting staff's time and budget.

I completely agree this is a waste of time and money. But these reports are created to justify the latest direction of any council & there is certainly an angle to this review to be concerned over if you are pro subway for the full DRL. I would expect that even if LRT is chosen and promoted here for the North leg, it wont be the last report we see. Which could make it more of a waste.

I think it can be seen as very concerning that we are still studying the conceptual designs of these important projects and not focusing on financing for the worst case even if "efficiencies" as they say can be found later. The best we can hope for is that subway is chosen and we can work with the Province to plan accordingly.