WislaHD
Superstar
I had to look that up.
I wonder why this hasn't been proposed for Jane Street ever.
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
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I wonder why this hasn't been proposed for Jane Street ever.
44 North
Senior Member
Probably a reason...
They also threw an elephant off one of the cars in the 50s, so maybe nature was returning the favour. But you do raise a good point about Dufferin. No question its ridership is extremely high for a mixed traffic surface route. My biggest issue with bringing a Queen Subway/RL up that way is it's fairly close to U/S, and that there doesn't seem to be a good public right-of-way to have the line veer NW (as it logically should). Maybe a below-grade extension of the legacy network could work, provided it's done affordably?
WislaHD
Superstar
I disagree with the notion that it needs to veer NW.
RER upgrades, alongside FWLRT and Crosstown West satisfies transit in the NW of Toronto. Direct funds to adding more RER stations in Etobicoke, Weston, etc. and developing interchanges with the rest of the network. No need to duplicate service between RER and subway along the same rail corridor.
Maybe, if we wanted to, we can look at the Jane LRT once again.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
The new density is only occurring at the major intersections though, mainly at Lawrence and Dufferin - which is already 5 minutes away from the Lawrence West subway station. Dufferin is almost entirely single family dwellings from Queen all the way to Castlefield. I fathom to see how 44,000 daily ridership will be sustained in a post-Crosstown stop at Fairbank scenario, and even more so with a station at Queen for the DRL.
I believe in spreading the wealth, in as measured a way as we can. Commuter rail may have been adequate for circa 1950s NW Toronto but the area is projected to grow far beyond what that mode alone can handle, not to mention the influx of commuters from Woodbridge, Brampton and Malton that would also feed into a DRL that extended within a short bus ride of their borders.
We ought to be future-proofing best we can, and that involves fanning out the subway network. Vancouver's new Evergreen Line largely duplicates the West Coast Express commuter rail spine yet Metro Vancouver still saw the need double up the transit being offered in the corridor. We mustn't be afraid of route duplication, especially if the parallel lines go to different destinations and have different stop spacings and frequencies. And like I said here previously, a theoretical DRL could get Humber College students downtown within 25 minutes, far outperforming the time duration of the 191 bus + BD + YUS; or Finch LRT + YUS.
muller877
Senior Member
Quick answer....it doesn't sustain it. Unlike most lines that terminate when crossing the subway line (e.g. Kipling, Finch, etc) Dufferin keeps on going. Looking at the number of people getting on/off the bus at Bloor it appears as if the vast majority are transferring here. So you almost have to look at it as 2 separate lines each with 22,000 riders when comparing it to other lines in the city.
So yes, it is a busy route but not the amount you expect when you segment it out on the movement of riders.
It's amazing that both Dufferin and Bathurst are extremely busy even though they are so close to the University line. Would love to see some studies to see where riders are travelling from/to. Are people avoiding the one extra transfer? Why do they avoid it? And will it be the same for a DRL solution both in the east and the west?
WislaHD
Superstar
Good points, I'll add my thoughts.
We are talking about dense single family dwellings. These are older, established neighbourhoods with density and tight streetgrid. Not your suburban homes.
Look at the population density map. Most of the population on the corridor is between Eglinton and King. That is also where we are expected to have major population growth like at Galleria Mall.
The Crosstown will take several thousand people off at Fairbank station, but that won't make a difference about the critical mass of people boarding south of Eglinton.
The business case for subway under Dufferin is probably better than for Don Mills, if we are being consistent with the numbers here. Don Mills just has the added bonus of relieving the Yonge subway, which is why it takes priority.
We aren't staying with commuter rail. We are upgrading to RER. If executed properly, RER would have subway level frequencies and serve exactly those type of people.
If you look at peak hour peak direction ridership, we still at the end of the day have over-capacity articulated buses entering and exiting Dufferin station. This crush load is growing, even if the majority of them eventually transfer at Bloor.
This is a ripe route for rapid transit upgrade.
That is another way of looking at it.
We are talking about dense single family dwellings. These are older, established neighbourhoods with density and tight streetgrid. Not your suburban homes.
Look at the population density map. Most of the population on the corridor is between Eglinton and King. That is also where we are expected to have major population growth like at Galleria Mall.
The Crosstown will take several thousand people off at Fairbank station, but that won't make a difference about the critical mass of people boarding south of Eglinton.
The business case for subway under Dufferin is probably better than for Don Mills, if we are being consistent with the numbers here. Don Mills just has the added bonus of relieving the Yonge subway, which is why it takes priority.
We aren't staying with commuter rail. We are upgrading to RER. If executed properly, RER would have subway level frequencies and serve exactly those type of people.
If you look at peak hour peak direction ridership, we still at the end of the day have over-capacity articulated buses entering and exiting Dufferin station. This crush load is growing, even if the majority of them eventually transfer at Bloor.
This is a ripe route for rapid transit upgrade.
So you are telling me that we can relief St. George and Bloor-Yonge of potentially 22,000 riders a day by catching the riders transfering at Dufferin Station?
That is another way of looking at it.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Does the city need more EW, NS or non-under-street (diagonal) rapid transit lines? Don't say we need all of the above.
Palma
Senior Member
Guess you are not aware of all those condo builds going up north of Eglinton. Lawrence and Dufferin, Apex Rd & Dufferin, Yorkdale ( dufferin & mcadam), Holiday Inn development, smaller development at briar hill & dufferin, and south of Lawrence near tasco. Just to name a few so far, There is also another condo proposed where Ford dealership presently sits.Only a master of time before bridgeland and dufferin gets development (condo)
WislaHD
Superstar
I'm somewhat familiar, following along on UT.
The thing is, a Dufferin North bus terminating at Fairbank Station on the Crosstown (+ interchange with Dufferin subway?) can serve those developments. Likewise, east-west routes to the Spadina Line is a decent alternative up there.
But you are right to point it out. Some people in the Transit Fantasy thread suggested connecting and interlining a hypothetical Dufferin subway with a Sheppard Line that has been extended west to Downsview. Like this, the Sheppard and DRL subways form Toronto's very own ring subway!
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
At this point, Sheppard to STC is more likely than to Downsview, even though the latter seems more logical and is a clear hole in the TTC subway map.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Dufferin is much further from University than University is from Yonge; I don't think it is "too close" given the high density of the area.
The Dufferin route does not preclude extending the line in the NW direction in the future (assuming that such extension is needed). There are several options to do that.
For example: up Dufferin to St Clair, then curving west and crossing the Prospect Cemetery under Rogers Road, with a station somewhere in the Rogers & Caledonia area. Then, curving north-west, ignoring the street grid and reaching the Eglinton / Keele / Trethewey intersection. If the line has to go further north eventually, it can follow Trethewey, then either join the Weston rail corridor or turn north and reach the Jane & Lawrence intersection.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Does the Queen Lower streetcar station promote or discourage the Queen alignment of the Relief Line? On the one hand, it means less to excavate. On the other hand, it requires more engineering marvel to accommodate for the old infrastructure. Or does it have little or no impact on the decision making and costs.
WislaHD
Superstar
My understanding is that it as a piece of infrastructure, is entirely irrelevant for the Relief Line.
The tunnel and station will be much deeper.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Depending on how the DRL station is aligned, maybe it could be used as a mezzanine like the upcoming Yonge-Eglinton station?
AoD
WislaHD
Superstar
TTC could put some retail down there for additional source of income?
I have no idea what the underground streetcar station size or floorprint looks like though.