TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[the lemur]

It was interesting reading about Berlin's tram system. I've never been to that city and didn't realize how extensive it is. Does anyone know the difference between their Tram and Metro Tram lines? Wiki didn't give much detail on that, and it doesn't seem it'd be what's referred to over there as a stadtbahn.

Are you referring to the reference to 'underground trams'?

The German version of the release refers to U-Bahnen - which is just subway lines. (http://de.bombardier.com/content/ge...h-flexity-tram-to-the-berl.bombardiercom.html). Mistranslation.

Not to be confused with S-Bahn either, of course.

If you're referring to the distinction between some streetcar lines referred to as MetroTrams (line number preceded by M) vs others that aren't, it's just a way of indicating that those lines are so important that they generally run 24 hours - every 10 minutes during the day and every 30 minutes late at night.

There are also MetroBus lines - same concept in terms of level of service. Both MetroTram and MetroBus operate along major arterials not served by the U-Bahn or S-Bahn. It's just a service designation, not a difference in rolling stock.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also Pans are the industry standard in most of the world for decades, which shows just how far behind and backwards we still are. So yes we should care about these things if we are to call our city "world class"

Yes. Because when I think of world class cities, I think of pantographs

 

[44 North]

If you're referring to the distinction between some streetcar lines referred to as MetroTrams (line number preceded by M) vs others that aren't, it's just a way of indicating that those lines are so important that they generally run 24 hours - every 10 minutes during the day and every 30 minutes late at night.

There are also MetroBus lines - same concept in terms of level of service. Both MetroTram and MetroBus operate along major arterials not served by the U-Bahn or S-Bahn. It's just a service designation, not a difference in rolling stock.

Ah. I thought it perhaps meant a line was mostly or entirely in-median vs mixed traffic.

 

[crs1026]

Hard to say if it's faster or not, as there's no indication when the first production streetcar was delivered. We only know that it went in service in September 2011.

There are probably so many apples and oranges between their production effort and ours that it may be pointless to compare....the question would be, how rapid a delivery did Berlin ask, what tradeoffs between cost and speed of delivery were there, and is BBD keeping to the contracted schedule?

The contracted schedule on its face certainly looks reasonable given the output of other products built in Thunder Bay.

What we do know is that no one put a gun to BBD's head before they signed the contract with TTC - if they thought the schedule was not achievable they didn't have to sign. Or could have bid a different price, or sought relief from the penalties, declined to meet the TTC spec, etc.

I would measure their 'improvement' as a rolling average of the last 3 or 4 deliveries - by that standard, there has been no improvement. It's drip- drip - drip.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

I would measure their 'improvement' as a rolling average of the last 3 or 4 deliveries - by that standard, there has been no improvement. It's drip- drip - drip.

There's been no significant evidence of improvement in delivery frequency o date by any standard. However the latest schedule only called for one shipment in August, and they hit that. But 4 in September - and there's certainly indications that they may well achieve 2 or 3 if not more. Time will tell ...

 

[the lemur]

Ah. I thought it perhaps meant a line was mostly or entirely in-median vs mixed traffic.

I don't think Berlin actually has much in the way of median ROWs. Just platform islands (although some of them have subway entrances/exits emerging in them!).

 

[nfitz]

I don't think Berlin actually has much in the way of median ROWs. Just platform islands (although some of them have subway entrances/exits emerging in them!).

I just spent 10 seconds, and dropped into Streetview in Berlin.

Some lines have median ROWs. Some are just in traffic:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.5281...zAWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e2!6m1!1e1?hl=en

 

[the lemur]

I just spent 10 seconds, and dropped into Streetview in Berlin.

Some lines have median ROWs. Some are just in traffic:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.5281...zAWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e2!6m1!1e1?hl=en

The streetcar-only part through the park, you mean? By median ROWs I meant the kind that are separated, as on Spadina. Or here: https://goo.gl/maps/H9WL4

Here's a platform island with subway entrance of the type I mentioned: https://goo.gl/maps/UQRLm

 

[nfitz]

The streetcar-only part through the park, you mean?

On what I just linked? No, I don't see any tracks in a park. Tracks down the middle of the street, with a stop right there ... just like most of our routes.

By median ROWs I meant the kind that are separated, as on Spadina.

Yes, they seem to have both types, like here.

 

[the lemur]

On what I just linked? No, I don't see any tracks in a park. Tracks down the middle of the street, with a stop right there ... just like most of our routes.

I see now that you meant that as an example of central tracks in mixed traffic. But if you continue down to the end of Karl-Lade-Strasse the tracks continue in their own ROW alongside Fennpfuhlpark, with only sidewalks on either side:

https://goo.gl/maps/SDaO7

emerging here:

https://goo.gl/maps/uPytO

Quite a way west of there the same line actually goes through a park/hospital complex (?): https://goo.gl/maps/pWVDN

In fact I should have spent a bit more time in Streetview because it seems Berlin has a lot of streetcar track alongside roads, some Queensway-style ROWs and streetcar-only stretches of streets ...

 

[nfitz]

I see now that you meant that as an example of central tracks in mixed traffic. But if you continue down to the end of Karl-Lade-Strasse the tracks continue in their own ROW alongside Fennpfuhlpark, with only sidewalks on either side:

I was only in there for 5 seconds. Didn't look that far. Randomly picked a transit route shown along a road.

Does seem quite the mix of all sorts of things. Heck, there is some 2 or 3 lane roads with mixed traffic. No overtaking of streetcars!

 

[drum118]

I don't think Berlin actually has much in the way of median ROWs. Just platform islands (although some of them have subway entrances/exits emerging in them!).

Yes they do from my limit view and ridden on 3 lines.

They were building one at the main train station with a loop that held a few platforms. Even with a single track, it was down the middle.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wonder the numbers of private automobiles that end up on Berlin's tram right-of-ways?

 

[the lemur]

Yes they do from my limit view and ridden on 3 lines.

They were building one at the main train station with a loop that held a few platforms. Even with a single track, it was down the middle.

I stand very much corrected regarding your 2nd, 4th and 7th photos - those are in fact what I meant by median ROWs - but the others show either mixed traffic trackage, streetcar-only roads or, in the case of the 1st photo, an off-street loop like Broadview or Cherry St, but in a more built-up setting. Also, that's not so much for the main train station (presumably you mean Alexanderplatz, not Hauptbahnhof) as it is for the Hackescher Markt S-Bahn station.

 

[the lemur]

Wonder the numbers of private automobiles that end up on Berlin's tram right-of-ways?

It's been known to happen ....