TTC: Electric and alternative fuel buses

[dowlingm]

One area to potentially look at

Shenzhen has been running these busses for years with crush loads more extreme than ours.

They do not have the cold like we have but they do have extreme heat and humidity which causes seperate challenges.

I know we had a reasonably temperate July-August this year but it's hard to argue that Toronto doesn't have BOTH cold winters and humid summers where most systems only have one or other.

I'm not averse to looking at these vehicles and trialling a few but your postings here are quite optimistic and seem to be goading TTC to damn the torpedoes and roll them out. We have no idea what Shenzhen's funding model is, their spares ratio and mechanics ratio, how many of the buses are being maintained under manufacturer warranty whereas TTC usually pushes well beyond that timeframe, whether BYD would take the same attitude to spares as New Flyer does, etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

From this link:

L.A. Metro wants to spend $138 million on electric buses. The goal: An emission-free fleet by 2030

Thank you. This is the kind of vision, I wish the TTC had. Not a spur of the moment decision to consider BE buses. But a well thought out deliberate long term strategy. Analyze routes. Assess what size of battery is required. Assess where supplementary charging would be needed. And then work with Toronto Hydro to build that infrastructure. Or an interim plan to employ CNG. Run a trial with a few buses at some stations once you have an idea.

I honestly think the fuel savings and maintenance costs would be worthwhile.

 

[kEiThZ]

One area to potentially look at
I know we had a reasonably temperate July-August this year but it's hard to argue that Toronto doesn't have BOTH cold winters and humid summers where most systems only have one or other.

I'm not averse to looking at these vehicles and trialling a few but your postings here are quite optimistic and seem to be goading TTC to damn the torpedoes and roll them out. We have no idea what Shenzhen's funding model is, their spares ratio and mechanics ratio, how many of the buses are being maintained under manufacturer warranty whereas TTC usually pushes well beyond that timeframe, whether BYD would take the same attitude to spares as New Flyer does, etc.

Absolutely. It's why they should have been studying this all along. And been talking to counterparts at other agencies. I hope they run a trial out of this discussion and don't just buy a bunch of BYD buses.

 

[smallspy]

Absolutely. It's why they should have been studying this all along. And been talking to counterparts at other agencies. I hope they run a trial out of this discussion and don't just buy a bunch of BYD buses.

Don't worry, contrary to what it may sound like at the board meetings, staff is well aware of the technology (and all sorts of other emerging ones) and is quite frequently in communication with their counterparts elsewhere to see how things progress.

The problem is that there is a certain amount of additional infrastructure that is necessary to handle battery-electric buses regardless of the fleet size or the amount of time that you're going to be running them. No matter what, a purchase (and therefore, a monetary investment) is going to be necessary in order to run a proper trial.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Steve X]

Shenzhen has been running these busses for years with crush loads more extreme than ours.

They do not have the cold like we have but they do have extreme heat and humidity which causes seperate challenges.

Instead of Byford going to these boondoggle conferences in Europe that coincides with a perfect vacation right after it he should be going to look at these types of transit systems where they have figured out how to use technology and cut costs

Do we know if they keep their buses on road from 5am to 2am?

Even with diesel, TTC can't keep them out all day on the 191 either. The artics barely survive. It's hard to say if TTC could go all electric at this point without better battery management tech. They'll need an extensive pilot

I'm not going to judge Byford's decisions for how to run a transit system. He has the job and still does so far.

 

[dowlingm]

The problem is that there is a certain amount of additional infrastructure that is necessary to handle battery-electric buses regardless of the fleet size or the amount of time that you're going to be running them. No matter what, a purchase (and therefore, a monetary investment) is going to be necessary in order to run a proper trial.

Different jurisdictions have different motivations to throw money at these vehicles too. China has the incentive of wanting to build an export industry and provide lower-emission transit in cities with air pollution issues. Quebec wants to take advantage of abundant hydropower. If Orion Bus was still around and making e-buses in Mississauga, who knows what subsidies would be forthcoming (yes, even bearing in mind the hybrids)

 

[nfitz]

Is Winnipeg colder?

Than Toronto? It certainly is. They don't get as much snow though.

 

[muller877]

Than Toronto? It certainly is. They don't get as much snow though.

The cold impact batteries so Winnipeg is a perfect testing ground (Winnipeg has 3 seasons...cold, flood and bug seasons). I was there in December a few years ago and it was already -25C (plus wind-chill turned it to -40C...in December!)

Electric vehicles are normally heavier than gas vehicles (batteries weigh a tonne). So I would expect that they should do better in the snow.

 

[W. K. Lis]

King County (Seattle) Metro Zero-emission Battery Electric Bus Showcase – September 2017

See link.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Meanwhile, in Poland. From this link:

Poland bets on e-buses

The e-bus program promoted by the Polish government will support the industry, use the country's production potential and become part of the strategy for low-emission transportation.

commons.wikimedia.org/By Ursus - Ursus, CC BY 3.0

According to the announcements by the Ministry of Economic Development, a thousand electric buses will be driving on the Polish roads by 2020. One of the companies to deliver those buses is the Polish automotive firm Ursus which has PLN 180 million in orders for electric buses in 2018.

Meanwhile, in Toronto. Insert the sound of crickets here.

 

[DSC]

Meanwhile, in Poland. From this link:
.

This from Economist: https://www.economist.com/news/scie...ction-gets-rid-cables-it-now-practical-refuel

And wireless charging is especially promising for buses, says Andrew Daga, the boss of Momentum Dynamics, a firm in Pennsylvania that sells more of its charging units for buses than for cars. A big obstacle to the uptake of electric buses is the need to take them out of service for part of the day to recharge them. If, thanks to wireless charging, such a bus can sip enough power en route to keep it chugging along until it can be given a charge overnight, it can at last, he says, compete with the diesel sort.

One place where this is already happening is Milton Keynes, a town north-west of London. The Line 7 route in this town is serviced by electric buses that pause for two to four minutes over charging pads at each end of the line. Both pads have four buried coils, which can transfer power at a rate of 120 kilowatts. (By comparison, Evatran’s latest single-coil charger for cars provides 7.2 kilowatts.) That is enough for the buses to remain in service for 16 hours a day.

The equipment used in Milton Keynes, which is made by IPT Technology, a German firm, costs about £100,000 ($130,000) a pad. But the buses’ operator, eFIS, calculates that one of their vehicles costs 50 cents a kilometre less to run than a diesel one, thanks to savings on fuel and engine repair. Collectively, Line 7’s eight electric buses drive 700,000km a year. According to John Miles, eFIS’s boss, the firm expects to start servicing a second route in Milton Keynes soon, adding two more charging pads and 11 electric buses to the town’s public-transport network. Wirelessly charged buses also run in Mannheim, Germany, in Utrecht, in the Netherlands, and in the Italian cities of Genoa and Turin, as well as in Salt Lake City and the Californian cities of Lancaster, Long Beach, Monterey, Palmdale and Walnut Creek. Los Angeles is expected to join the list next year.

Though electric buses (and cars) may be the future (and they DO sound promising) I really hope the TTC lets others experiment with them. We buy lots of buses so if we wait and watch we are certainly not saying we will not buy any for decades.

 

[dowlingm]

Meanwhile, in Toronto. Insert the sound of crickets here.

This is a national government (presumably stepping carefully around EU State Aid rules, although with the current political situation there I wouldn't count on that) attempting to create a national champion in electric bus manufacture. What exactly are you proposing here, and what is the cost benefit analysis?

 

[W. K. Lis]

From the upcoming TTC meeting on November 13th, from this link.

The City of Toronto’s TransformTO action plan sets a target to reducen greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions of 80% by 2050 (against 1990 levels). In order for the TTC to do its part, we join other leading transit organizations in the C40 Fossil-Fuel-Free Streets Declaration, by targeting procurement of only zero-emission buses starting in 2025, and we will target a zero-emissions fleet by 2040.

It is recommended that

1. The Board delegate authority to the TTC CEO to negotiate and enter into up to three contracts for the supply of a total of 30 long range battery electric buses not to exceed the total project cost of $50M based on the following:
a) The award of contract(s) will be based on negotiating an acceptable agreement, satisfactory to the TTC General Council with the only three qualified long range battery electric bus suppliers, New Flyer, Proterra and BYD that are compliant with Transport Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; and b) All 30 battery electric buses are to be delivered no later than March 31, 2019 in order to ensure that the buses are eligible for PTIF funding.

2. The Board delegate authority to the TTC CEO to enter into a contract(s) with up to two suppliers for the supply of 230 new generation hybrid electric buses not to exceed the total project cost of $230M based on the following:
a) The award of the contract(s) will be based on negotiating an acceptable agreement, satisfactory to TTC General Council with the only two bus suppliers, Nova Bus and New Flyer, capable of manufacturing hybrid electric buses that are compliant with Transport Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; and
b) Hybrid electric buses are to be delivered no later than March 31, 2019 in order to ensure that the buses are eligible for PTIF funding

3. Staff return to the TTC Board in Q1 of 2018 with an information report providing award details with respect to recommendations 1 and 2​

 

[CapitalSeven]

I was happily surprised by this report. They looked fairly at the evidence, recommended some progressive stances. I was afraid it would contain about two sentences: We tried this and failed several years ago. Followed by: Not invented here.

 

[kEiThZ]

Really happy to see Proterra will be invited to bid and that this is not some sole source contract to BYD. Get as many bidders as possible to get a great product.