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TTC: Electric and alternative fuel buses

I'm sorry, what?
The head of the procurement department said that they were actively looking around at what other transit systems are buying and speaking with them, and they were putting together a request for information from the manufacturers of electric buses to see if they can meet the TTC's design requirements and also what they would have to do infrastructure wise if they bought them. It's not like going to a Tesla store and buying one and being able to plug it int a plug in your garage at home.
 
Just ridiculous.

To begin with they should have considered other tech choices from the start. But to do so now because of BYD lobbying is even more ridiculous. Where does this leave other great electric bus makers like Proterra or Canadian OEMs like Greenpower?

And there are serious considerations with electric buses. Are they planning for the charging infrastructure? What standards will they use for charging? No discussion of any of that.

I think Steve is a little too pessimistic on electric buses. But he's absolutely right on the proces with which this transpired.
We don't know if BYD buses are lemons. They might actually be decent products. The fact is there is lack of proven fact that BYD buses can survive our winters. They might live through two but how about 5 or 10? What happens to the battery after a few years? How does it compare to the batteries of the hybrid buses? TTC should buy a small batch from different manufactures and test them for 5 years. Ontario Hydro would prefer TTC buy buses that charges overnight than ones that does short charges throughout the day. The options might be limited.

In the meantime for the next 3 years, TTC should continue to buy "proven" diesel buses.
 
We don't know if BYD buses are lemons. They might actually be decent products. The fact is there is lack of proven fact that BYD buses can survive our winters. They might live through two but how about 5 or 10? What happens to the battery after a few years? How does it compare to the batteries of the hybrid buses? TTC should buy a small batch from different manufactures and test them for 5 years. Ontario Hydro would prefer TTC buy buses that charges overnight than ones that does short charges throughout the day. The options might be limited.

In the meantime for the next 3 years, TTC should continue to buy "proven" diesel buses.

Just like how Toronto is still studying LED lights even though they are used around the world and the carbon savings are huge. We have a supposed green council who refuses to adopt green tech like these newfangled LED's and battery operated vehicles.

Unless we count those couple of Prius' that Miller had chauffeurs drive around in 10 years ago.

We are buying a bus fleet that will last likely 15+ years. It is crazy that we are committing to spewing out carbon in our neighbourhoods for 15 more years.
 
Just like how Toronto is still studying LED lights even though they are used around the world and the carbon savings are huge. We have a supposed green council who refuses to adopt green tech like these newfangled LED's and battery operated vehicles.

Unless we count those couple of Prius' that Miller had chauffeurs drive around in 10 years ago.

We are buying a bus fleet that will last likely 15+ years. It is crazy that we are committing to spewing out carbon in our neighbourhoods for 15 more years.

That doesn't mean we can't buy electric buses for another 15 years, they replace buses pretty much on an ongoing basis, they can wait a few years before deciding to switch over. And it would be irresponsible to just switch over to buying nothing but electric now, since the TTC does not know enough about them, or what the yard requirements would be, nor is there even one to put them in.
 
We don't know if BYD buses are lemons. They might actually be decent products. The fact is there is lack of proven fact that BYD buses can survive our winters.

It's not so much that BYD buses are lemons. It's that the process seems to have been rigged to help them after their lobbying that bothers me.

And BYD buses are cheap for a reason. Makers like Proterra offer a better product, that is more expensive.

What should be done is a study laying out the state of bus tech and the TTC should have a bus electrification strategy. It's terrible that they haven't done that. Electric buses didn't appear out of nowhere.

They might live through two but how about 5 or 10? What happens to the battery after a few years? How does it compare to the batteries of the hybrid buses? TTC should buy a small batch from different manufactures and test them for 5 years. Ontario Hydro would prefer TTC buy buses that charges overnight than ones that does short charges throughout the day. The options might be limited.

See above. They should have already studied these things. Talked to other operators. And have some rudimentary analysis to know whether electrification is worthwhile and when it will become so. Doing it at the behest of a lobbying firm inevitably means skewed analysis that favours that OEM's products.
 
See above. They should have already studied these things. Talked to other operators. And have some rudimentary analysis to know whether electrification is worthwhile and when it will become so. Doing it at the behest of a lobbying firm inevitably means skewed analysis that favours that OEM's products.
That's exactly what they are doing. Right now there aren't many companies building electric buses and there aren't many places outside of China that have a lot of them. LA is just starting to use them as is Vancouver. Other places in Europe have them too but not in large enough quantities yet. Don't forget the TTC got bitten when they went with CNG buses and had problems with them, then most of the transit companies that got the first generation of hybrid buses had nothing but problems with them. So I don't really blame the TTC for wanting to be cautious now when they purchase new technolgy instead of jumping into the deep end and buying something that deest end up working out as it should.
 
The largest order I have seen so far for electric buses has been 20 and were both 40 & 60 foot buses orders.

BYD is getting the lion share of electric buses orders so far.

The biggest concern, how well will they do in our weather condition since most systems that have electric buses don't have our type of winter in the first place??

CNG buses still have the largest fleet out west in the US.

Its not that simple to go out and get Electric buses. You got to train staff to work on them, find an area to setup power bays for the buses and may have to increase the power to the building which will require upgrading the garage power system and this cost money.

Don't recall if TTC had a look at BYD 60' when it was up here last year, but was at Mississauga City Hall on display.

BYD delivers first of 20 electric buses to Albuquerque Rapid Transit

Clemson Area Transit adds second fleet of Proterra battery-electric buses
 
The largest order I have seen so far for electric buses has been 20 and were both 40 & 60 foot buses orders.

BYD is getting the lion share of electric buses orders so far.

Proterra on their way to 120 buses with just King County Metro (covering Seattle) with 73 on order right now:

https://www.proterra.com/news-resou...ic-bus-order-king-county-metro-makes-history/

BYD has won more orders to be sure. But Proterra seems to be making headway with more established and larger transit. Aside from Seattle, the buses are being tested with New York's MTA:

http://www.mta.info/news-nyct-bus/2017/04/26/mta-tests-electric-buses-use-ny-streets

I am a huge fan of Proterra because of their tech. The CFRP body for example. Reduces corrosion.

The biggest concern, how well will they do in our weather condition since most systems that have electric buses don't have our type of winter in the first place??

New York and Seattle are about as close as we're practically going to get for our weather. So I would hope the TTC is talking to them.

CNG buses still have the largest fleet out west in the US.

Indeed, and given nat gas prices, this could be the better option. It's amazing that this hasn't been studied either. I think electrics are only a good solution if (after testing), we determine they work and we commit to a full phased in fleet replacement plan for this reason:

Its not that simple to go out and get Electric buses. You got to train staff to work on them, find an area to setup power bays for the buses and may have to increase the power to the building which will require upgrading the garage power system and this cost money.

Indeed, the biggest decisions will be which tech to commit to. Would we have retractable catenary so that the buses can charge when they pull in to stations? Or just boxes with extension cords that the drivers go out an plug in? What will the power be? Which of course, determines charging speeds, and hence operating limits.
 
Indeed, the biggest decisions will be which tech to commit to. Would we have retractable catenary so that the buses can charge when they pull in to stations? Or just boxes with extension cords that the drivers go out an plug in? What will the power be? Which of course, determines charging speeds, and hence operating limits.
More likely they will charge at the garage as they said at the last board meeting that they have spoken with Toronto Hydro about it and they said that it would be preferable to charge at night due to lower demands on power.
 
More likely they will charge at the garage as they said at the last board meeting that they have spoken with Toronto Hydro about it and they said that it would be preferable to charge at night due to lower demands on power.

En route charging vs. battery costs are a tradeoff study. You can have smaller batteries and overhead charging facilities strategically located to top you up just enough to keep your day going. Or you can pay a lot more for bigger batteries and basically not worry about it all day. BYDs do have less range than other competitors. So the TTC really has to investigate if they have the range to last a full day.

As for winter ops, I see on Wikipedia that BYD has seen service in Helsinki, Windsor, Utah, Frankfurt and Warsaw. While none of those are as cold and snowy as Toronto, they are close enough to get a rough idea of how those buses fair in the winter. And what the performance drops are like. TTC fleet managers have a good excuse for a euro trip, me thinks.
 
Is Winnipeg colder? The TTC doesn't have to go to Europe.


See link.

The charging station supplies up to 300 kW of power to the bus and has the capacity to recharge the bus in about 10 minutes after each round trip on the route. Charging will occur during the scheduled layover time at the airport terminal while the bus is waiting to start its next trip.

The bus will leave the airport for the outer terminal in East Kildonan through the downtown and will return to the airport approximately two hours later. The bus, which has the battery capacity to allow for operation of up to five hours between charges, is capable of maintaining service for more than 20 hours a day, seven days a week, when kept at full charge.
 
Just like how Toronto is still studying LED lights even though they are used around the world and the carbon savings are huge. We have a supposed green council who refuses to adopt green tech like these newfangled LED's and battery operated vehicles.

Unless we count those couple of Prius' that Miller had chauffeurs drive around in 10 years ago.

We are buying a bus fleet that will last likely 15+ years. It is crazy that we are committing to spewing out carbon in our neighbourhoods for 15 more years.
Andy Byford is right about this. The main job of the TTC is to transport people. Transit is already a much more environmental friendly option than automobiles. TTC can't take the risk of buy a bunch of unproven vehicles and have nothing to deliver service in 5 years. Yes these approved 325 buses will be here in 2030 but if TTC went electric 5 years later, 60-75% of the fleet would be electric. We can't have the city's economics be held on a lifeline when a few environmentalist think it's great to jump into this new tech. Majority of people would prefer to get to work or wherever they want to be than to be riding on electric buses that might break down halfway.

We don't even know if these buses can last the whole day from 5am to 2am while carrying crush loads during rush hour. Many TAs don't schedule their buses for such demanding tasks and don't have crush loads like the TTC. Especially those small transit systems. What works for them doesn't mean it would work here. TTC better off piloting a small number of them. Like 50-100, not 10 and not 500.

Yes TO should have gone with LED lights. That's a straightforward answer but electric buses is still unproven. TTC doesn't need to be burnt again like the CNGs and hybrid buses.
 
Andy Byford is right about this. The main job of the TTC is to transport people. Transit is already a much more environmental friendly option than automobiles. TTC can't take the risk of buy a bunch of unproven vehicles and have nothing to deliver service in 5 years. Yes these approved 325 buses will be here in 2030 but if TTC went electric 5 years later, 60-75% of the fleet would be electric. We can't have the city's economics be held on a lifeline when a few environmentalist think it's great to jump into this new tech. Majority of people would prefer to get to work or wherever they want to be than to be riding on electric buses that might break down halfway.

We don't even know if these buses can last the whole day from 5am to 2am while carrying crush loads during rush hour. Many TAs don't schedule their buses for such demanding tasks and don't have crush loads like the TTC. Especially those small transit systems. What works for them doesn't mean it would work here. TTC better off piloting a small number of them. Like 50-100, not 10 and not 500.

Yes TO should have gone with LED lights. That's a straightforward answer but electric buses is still unproven. TTC doesn't need to be burnt again like the CNGs and hybrid buses.

Shenzhen has been running these busses for years with crush loads more extreme than ours.

They do not have the cold like we have but they do have extreme heat and humidity which causes seperate challenges.

Instead of Byford going to these boondoggle conferences in Europe that coincides with a perfect vacation right after it he should be going to look at these types of transit systems where they have figured out how to use technology and cut costs
 
From this link:

L.A. Metro wants to spend $138 million on electric buses. The goal: An emission-free fleet by 2030

Southern California’s biggest transit agency retired its last diesel bus six years ago, capping a 15-year process to replace tailpipes that belched black smoke with quieter, cleaner engines powered by natural gas.

Now, Los Angeles County transportation leaders are working toward a bolder goal: buses that don’t pollute at all.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has begun to plan how to eliminate emissions from its fleet by 2030, a move that will require buying more than 2,300 buses that run on electric batteries or another form of zero-emission power, such as hydrogen.

Metro’s ambitious goal, at a time when no other major U.S. transit agency owns more than a handful of battery-powered buses, would make Los Angeles a proving ground for a relatively untested technology.

But the 2030 benchmark has prompted some questions from critics about how much Metro should spend on electric buses while the technology is still new and expensive. Supporters have said the agency’s investment could help a budding industry that pledges significant air-quality benefits.

“We have two choices,” said Metro chairman and Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti, who introduced the 2030 goal. “We can wait for others, and follow, at the expense of residents’ health — or lead and innovate, and reduce emissions as quickly as possible. I’d much rather do the latter.”...
 
En route charging vs. battery costs are a tradeoff study. You can have smaller batteries and overhead charging facilities strategically located to top you up just enough to keep your day going. Or you can pay a lot more for bigger batteries and basically not worry about it all day. BYDs do have less range than other competitors. So the TTC really has to investigate if they have the range to last a full day..

They really should have 2 fleets. One for the routes that are short and have a terminus where the driver takes a biological break. These should have overhead charging and are the shorter loops. The ones that need to be charged at night have larger batteries and are longer hauls and short turnover at any station.

Having 2 or 3 types of busses is not unreasonable for a transit system as large as the TTC. (short haul, long and attics)
 

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