Amare
Senior Member
They'd be wasting their time if they did. Every single alternative technology the TTC has tried to date has been a complete failure: CNG, Hybrid, Bio-Fuel, you name it they cant get it right.
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TTC: Electric and alternative fuel buses
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
They'd be wasting their time if they did. Every single alternative technology the TTC has tried to date has been a complete failure: CNG, Hybrid, Bio-Fuel, you name it they cant get it right.
Johnny Au
Senior Member
Even the TTC didn't do the automated people-mover properly since 1985!
APTA-2048
Senior Member
They were early adopters. That's why.
smallspy
Senior Member
In the case of bio-fuel, you're quite wrong. It was very successful, but only on a portion of the fleet. (On the rest, it didn't provide any benefit, but at least it wasn't a hindrance.) As it turned out, that portion was the oldest portion, and so as the older buses were phased out it became less and less useful. They only discontinued the bio-fuel program once the number of New Look buses equated a minuscule portion of the overall fleet.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
dowlingm
Senior Member
It would be good to see TTC manage to deploy electric buses on night services at least. Two reasons:
1. If they are continuous charge (trolleys) or charge-at-stop vehicles, then presumably this would use cheaper electricity. I think TTC has a flat rate deal but clearly the more of the night surplus they use, the better in the big picture.
2. Presumably significantly quieter than the daytime vehicles.
I don't think it's worth TTC's while looking at small trolley buses - routes worth the investment can probably support artics, right?
Do XT60s have all wheel drive? Might help with some of the performance issues associated with artics, no? (Wouldn't help the procurement issues between Flyer and TTC of course)
1. If they are continuous charge (trolleys) or charge-at-stop vehicles, then presumably this would use cheaper electricity. I think TTC has a flat rate deal but clearly the more of the night surplus they use, the better in the big picture.
2. Presumably significantly quieter than the daytime vehicles.
I don't think it's worth TTC's while looking at small trolley buses - routes worth the investment can probably support artics, right?
Do XT60s have all wheel drive? Might help with some of the performance issues associated with artics, no? (Wouldn't help the procurement issues between Flyer and TTC of course)
cplchanb
Senior Member
OK...we get it....EBs are the next big thing on transit tech... however as canada's largest transit it would be naive to jump all
in and do a fleet change. Its way too risky as seen by the hybrids. The smart thing to do apart from setting our priorities straight is to observe what neighbouring systems
are doing IE YRT, and then make an informed decision. Its not like DRL or new SSE where they need to act now. Theres much more pressing things
than this
in and do a fleet change. Its way too risky as seen by the hybrids. The smart thing to do apart from setting our priorities straight is to observe what neighbouring systems
are doing IE YRT, and then make an informed decision. Its not like DRL or new SSE where they need to act now. Theres much more pressing things
than this
dowlingm
Senior Member
The one thing TBs or EBs might have going for them is that garages for them might be buildable in areas where diesel garages would be difficult or out of the question (e.g. Coxwell, Lansdowne) either on noise grounds or because refuelling facilities could not be safely added. TTC is continually behind the curve on availability of garages, and new ones more likely to be built in the suburbs which increases deadheading time for routes downtown. With routine ventilation less of an issue, it would probably be cheaper to constructed covered storage for such vehicles compared to diesel ones.
ShonTron
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Renamed this thread to better discuss the ideas of electric (non-trolley) and alternate fuel buses.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
smallspy
Senior Member
Just because you've done away with diesel doesn't mean that you still have lots of other hydrocarbons to deal with in the form of lubricants and degreasers - which can be much harder to contain. And while you no longer have any noisy diesel engines on the vehicles (although there will still likely be others on the property), you'll still have lots of noise from other components on the vehicle that need to operate - for instance, air compressors are louder in electric buses than they are in diesel buses, as there needs to be a separate motor and driveline to power them. Then there's the issue of electrical service - residential neighbourhoods aren't generally wired with 600V/3 phase.
No matter what kind of vehicle you have, it's going to have to be in an industrial area. There's just no way around it.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Warsaw Bus Expo 2017
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Electric buses conquer Europe!
M636RF
New Member
I think thats clearly what's going on. You mentioned that YRT will be testing electric buses, and Brampton will also do the same. Seeing how different models of EBs perform in an equivalent environment is definately important.
Brampton will test up to 10 buses:
https://www.newflyer.com/rss/814-br...ctric-bus-demonstration-and-integration-trial
You're right. One feature which I hate about New Flyer's electric model is that the HVAC system is mounted at the rear instead of on the roof, so the level of interior noise at idle is actually greater than newer Diesel models.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Here's what I wrote, and you took me to issue:
I was very careful not to espouse jumping in, but the technology has come leaps and bounds in just years. Being an electronic tech, I've been following energy density and supercapacitor development for a number of years. And even *I* was skeptical of many claims. (And some remain manic). But things are moving fast on this, and similar for streetcars, which actually lend themselves even more to induction charging and other modern methods that eliminate, at least in part, the need for catenary. This is the modern equivalent (with a high discharge rate system) of a flywheel, which, btw, was close to coming into use on some early UK Routemaster buses until their unfortunate habit of catastrophically delaminating nixed that idea.
Safety surrounding high-density and uncontrolled rate discharge energy storage is still a concern. Witness Li-Ion batteries, but breakthroughs addressing even that are ongoing.
Meantime, here's the sooty writing on the wall:
London to Phase Out Diesel Buses From 2018 to Tackle ‘Toxic’ Air
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ut-diesel-buses-from-2018-to-tackle-toxic-air
cplchanb
Senior Member
thats a very slippery article
First the title is not entirely true. the plan is to stop PROCURING by next year not phase out. buses procured this year will still be around for another 10, and given the advent of brexit I
am not sure if they are naive enough to budget a complete firesale and restock of EB within the next 5 years
Second we all know what happens when govt "pledges" to do something. All political sweet talk and far lesser tangible action. Who knows, maybe this time they will
do something right and stick with it until the very end, but until it is actually signed, purchased and running daily, I will remain sceptical.
However, most importantly, UK can do whatever they want, but unfortunately this is North America and our standards are much different. What theyve developed does not
mean that they can import it overseas and be 100% transferable. Years of tests are still required by regulations and even until then large TAs would want to pilot project it for another
few. Coupled by our antique TC as well as an self centred city council I dont foresee anything big happening for TTC until at least the mid 2020s