Transit City Plan

[CDL.TO]

But then a subway would attract new customers who would just be dumped on to the already crowded Yonge line.

 

[JasonParis]

Indeed, there's no "relief" to be had from a fully-built Eglinton line.

 

[unimaginative2]

I didn't know you wrote that article. You're perhaps the perfect person to ask then, how such a line could be logistically possible? The DRL borrows heavily from existing and limited GO corridors and would involve a very long tunnel from BD to Thorncliffe Park serving only one intermediate. There's other ways of alleviating YUS besides a line that doesn't really go anywhere (i.e. nodes few and far in between).

The section in the central rail corridor is the easiest part of all. Take a trip down there, or even look on Google Maps (Windows Live Maps actually has better imaging). You'll see that there's a huge amount of completely unused space on the south side of the corridor. It would be as simple as laying down tracks and building simple above-ground stations.

You wouldn't have a tunnel under the Don Valley. You'd have a bridge. If you could somehow run it on the existing Leaside Bridge, even better. The number of intermediate stations vs length of tunnel is irrelevant. In fact, the fewer stations the better: it means for a quicker ride and less expensive construction. Danforth to the Don Valley is hardly unprecedented in terms of tunnel length. It's less than Eglinton to Lawrence. I'd also like to see it cut-and-covered. Sure, it'd be unfortunate for the handful of people on Pape, but it could save a fortune. A lot fewer businesses to disrupt than on Cambie.

Of course there are lots of ways to relieve the Yonge Line, though few are better for the area south of Danforth. You should read the rest of the forum, Dentrobate. Thousands and thousands of units are being built the length of the line in places like the West Don Lands and East Bayfront (both directly served by stations at Cherry and Sherbourne), along with the Port Lands (whose riders could transfer from streetcar to subway at Cherry).

I'm not knocking it per se but it seems improved GO service trivializes the need for a TTC run service in the rail corridors. While downtown needs another east-west subway (BD isn't remotely satisfactory enough) by making it be a DRL, we'd only see stops at Queen/Broadview, the central waterfront and Queen/Dufferin- nice for a suburb but not the core. A cluster of about 15 stops surrounded by trip-generators would be very affective.

Okay, for the tenth time the point of the line isn't that it runs in rail corridors. The fact that some of them are available on the route is simply a pleasant bonus that dramatically lowers the cost. The point of the route is:

1. to serve the areas east and west of downtown, including major trip generators that I mentioned above, the Exhibition, Downtown West, the Fort York neighbourhood, the Ex, West Queen West, and others;
2. to relieve overcrowding at Bloor-Yonge station and on the Yonge line south of Bloor
3. to attract people from areas like the Beach and Long Branch to take the streetcar and transfer to the subway, rather than the bus up to B-D and then subway back down again to get to downtown
4. to support development of the waterfront and brownfield areas easat and west of downtown

When extended north along Don Mills, the main purpose is to attract transfers from east-west bus riders who are presently going all the way west to Yonge. This would both relieve the Yonge line and dramatically shorten their travel times. Secondarily, it would serve the major development areas (poorly-served by existing transit) at Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park, Wynford Drive, the Science Centre, the Don Mills neighbourhood, and Seneca College.

I'm not sure where you'd put 15 stops on the route. The ones I've mentioned would serve everybody along it quite nicely. Maybe another stop at Eastern Avenue if the "Studio District" gets re-developed with more than a Wal-Mart. I've also thought about routing it east of the Don along Lakeshore instead of Eastern to Pape/Carlaw in order to serve (and rapidly accelerate) future development in the new film studio/McCleary Park area.

What are your thoughts on the Eglinton-Don Mills initiative Unimaginative? Given that not all 416 trips include the CBD and that new Eglinton subway riders would mostly be converts from Eglinton corridor buses (i.e. won't lead to overcrowding the YUS line), could it in fact be just as effective a relief line to Toronto as the DRL would?

If the ridership projections the TTC has for Transit City routes have any relationship to reality, the Eglinton line would indeed severely overcrowd the Yonge line. I can't fathom how it would relieve the Yonge line in any way. If anything, it would simply extend the congestion further north, with some B-D riders transfering to Yonge at Eglinton instead of Bloor.

That's not to say that I don't support the Eglinton Crosstown streetcar. I think it's a good spot for light rail and I hope the TTC doesn't screw it up by running the surface sections so unreliably that the underground section becomes completely useless. Eglinton west of Yonge isn't a particularly busy corridor so it would be pretty far down on my list for subways. In the Network 2011 study it was supposed to be a busway.

Using it as an alternative for airport access to an express service from Downtown is completely absurd. They serve entirely different markets. Note that Heathrow has four different transit access methods, all serving different markets. I also don't think it would even be time-competitive with the existing Airport Rocket.

I don't think the Don Mills line will be effective at attracting many riders from east-west bus routes because its travel time won't be competitive with simply staying on the bus to the Yonge line. Real rapid transit, on the other hand, could divert thousands of riders southbound at Don Mills rather than Yonge, saving them a great deal of time and relieving the Yonge line to allow for organic growth and extensions north.

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

How long would it take to get from Pearson via the Eglington Crosstown to Eglington West? Any ideas or guesstimates?

I think an important part of MoveOntario 2020 is the proposed GO connection to the airport. The more choices we have to make the better.

What would be the ideal route to Pearson anyways?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

How long would it take to get from Pearson via the Eglington Crosstown to Eglington West? Any ideas or guesstimates? What would be the ideal route to Pearson anyways?

My guess would be about 20-30 minutes maximum if Eglinton Crosstown's done as a subway. You have to remember the stations would be very far apart (unlike BD) and already within range of the airport. Only 17% of airport commutes originate from/to the CBD, so I'd have to go with EC. Combining airport demand with local Eglinton corridor demands (inclusive of a major commercial-industrial hub just west of Renforth) benefits several types of transit riders. Also it could bring the Spadina line to at-capacity levels, in effect alleviating the Yonge side of YUS and somewhat BD through the siphoning away of north-south bus commuters subway-bound. In a perfect world I suppose we'd have some version of both an Eglinton line and DRL though.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

People from North York or Scarborough - not to mention the entire 905 - are just not going to drag luggage onto a bus to connect to the Eglinton line to take a 30-60+ minute streetcar ride to the airport...that "17%" pretty much constitutes the entire market of travellers worth building transit to the airport for - yuppies, bohemians, businessmen, foreign tourists, all of them are focused on downtown. Simply put, there is no 'airport demand' on the Eglinton corridor.

 

[nfitz]

Presumably, much of the demand will be for those working at the airport. The airport is a huge employment node. For some, the Eglinton streetcar will be convenient. For some others the GO airport service might be.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If we're going to go around building transit for a few thousand people at a time, Middlefield deserves a tunneled streetcar, too.

 

[lordmandeep]

How many people live in the CBD??? 100,000??

How many live in Toronto 2.5 million???

So having the line on Eglinton would serve the entire city and would be well used.

 

[unimaginative2]

For the hundredth time, it's not some kind of competition. Obviously in a world of near-unlimited funding (that is, the world of MoveOntario 2020), both the Eglinton and Downtown lines should be built.

Lordmandeep, I'm not even going to go into the problems with that statement. Anyone else should feel free.

 

[nfitz]

Obviously in a world of near-unlimited funding (that is, the world of MoveOntario 2020)...

MoveOntario 2020 is near-unlimited funding? Ontario has only committed $12 billion over a 14-year period to the program for the entire Golden Horseshoe. Using the Spadina subway costs (in 2006 $), you get 8.6 km of subway for $2 billion. So if the entire thing was subway, you get only 49.8 km of subway - and that ignores that you haven't purchased any equipment, upgraded the signaling on the existing system, or converted $ from 2006, or have to spend the money from Hamilton to Bowmanville.

So with that, you could complete the Spadina Extension, build the Eglinton line as a subway. And build the Yonge extension north from Finch. That's it - money all gone. Not even enough for completing Sheppard, or dealing with the SRT. Nothing for GO. Okay, there's supposed to be another $ 6 billion from other than the province - and that would get you Sheppard completed ... but still not enough to start downtown. Or buy you any of that equipment.

I'm not sure how people relate MoveOntario 2020 to near-unlimited funding. As much as I'd like to see more subway, I'd think most people would agree that the huge package in MoveOntario 2020 is a better deal than a couple more subways.

 

[doady]

MoveOntario CAN be considered unlimited funding. It basically funded every single transit project already proposed and then some. If the TTC had proposed 120 km of subway instead of 120 km of LRT, it would still have been funded.

 

[Hipster Duck]

AFAIC, other than the soon to be UC expansion to York and finishing up Sheppard, we never have to build another subway again.

Better to spend that money on the S-bahn/RER style service with some rapid bus or LRT routes to fill in the neighbourhood gaps.

Subways are best used in a city with a population density of over 10,000/km2. It makes sense to build them in Asian cities, in Paris, in Manhattan, etc. A city like Melbourne, which has the same density (and even looks the same, in places) as Toronto, has gotten by perfectly well without a single subway line. They rely on a combination of electric suburban rail services and streetcars with better results.

 

[nfitz]

The Government ponied up about $12 billion, including $4 billion for the Transit City LRT. Spadina is running about $2 billion for 8 km, so 120 km would cost about $30 billion - probably a lot more by the time you by vehicles, upgrade the existing signalling system to allow for expansion, convert from 2006 dollars, etc.

Are you expecting us to believe that had TTC proposed building Transit City as subway instead of LRT, that the province would have magically had a $38 billion budget ($3.2 billion a year) instead of a $12 billion ($1 billion a year) budget?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

People from North York or Scarborough - not to mention the entire 905 - are just not going to drag luggage onto a bus to connect to the Eglinton line to take a 30-60+ minute streetcar ride to the airport...that "17%" pretty much constitutes the entire market of travellers worth building transit to the airport for - yuppies, bohemians, businessmen, foreign tourists, all of them are focused on downtown. Simply put, there is no 'airport demand' on the Eglinton corridor.

What !?! You say that like there's currently a better alternative to a bus+bus connection to Pearson? Of course you could also presume all those 905ers/North Yorkers/Scarberians make their way all the way down to BD, across to Kipling, await a once per hour express bus they'll have to stand on at 90km/h but who cares about the pros of an Eglinton line right? There is absolutely nothing in the Weston SUB worth merit to build an entirely new subway line for, so this Pearson-downtown link must come solely via a non-stop express train sans Blue 22 (Union-Dundas West-Pearson) only.

Airport demand from the Eglinton corridor comes from indirect yet more logical places than everyone commuting downtown to then continue onto the airport. Yonge-Eglinton right on the line has a high proximity to business travellers, young executives, nouvelle riche that would frequent such a line. Yonge-St. Clair and of NYCC are a few minutes away and would delight in a bus-free airport commute. Lets not forget Mississauga, a city with no direct viable link to its own airport. The basis of their entire BRT plan relies on Eglinton subway and alone could account for one-third of daily ridership. This is all ignoring the massive redevelopemnts along Eglinton as result of a subway, everywhere from Kennedy to Martin Grove could be laden with high-rises within a decade of completion, in effect altering transit/development patterns away from Yonge St and downtown but dually minimising 905 evaccuation migration. These new residents of course will contribute to daily ridership to Pearson and beyond.

If we're going to go around building transit for a few thousand people at a time, Middlefield deserves a tunneled streetcar, too.

Eglinton will not be a streetcar line. In spite of TC, I think the tunneled portion will always be built with subways in mind. From there abridged routes of 32 and 34 can take up the slack until a complete line from Pearson to Kennedy is built. Again, since TC arose out of a provincial election campaign it would not be fair to the over 10 million other Ontarians out there that Toronto would absorb an entire transit budget on a Toronto-only subway. With that past, the truth we seek may soon come to light.

So with that, you could complete the Spadina Extension, build the Eglinton line as a subway. And build the Yonge extension north from Finch. That's it - money all gone. Not even enough for completing Sheppard, or dealing with the SRT. Nothing for GO. Okay, there's supposed to be another $ 6 billion from other than the province - and that would get you Sheppard completed ... but still not enough to start downtown. Or buy you any of that equipment.

You have remember projected subway costs are often blown way out of proportion too as a propoganda tactic. No one wants to be the narc who approved a multibillion dollar subway project (here's looking at you Mel!). Jane Whitfield came up with a proposal to build the Eglinton line all the way out to Jane Street for around 2 billion, not from Allen but rather Yonge St. In our overskeptical society is it any wonder why we have no new subways, we believe the hype of over-inflated projections instead of considering acutal run-of-the-mill costs of material, labour, expropiation, etc.