am29
Active Member
Cause that's where the politicians live. That phrase sounds like a good movie title. I should try and sell it at TIFF.
Toronto Time and Space Condos | 101.8m | 29s | Pemberton | Wallman Architects
- Thread starter M5A
- Start date
Razz
Senior Member
At the risk of flogging a dead horse, a look at the first image below clearly emphasizes the uniformly mid-rise built form that characterizes the St. Lawrence neighbourhood. Recently built residential condominium developments along the north edge of the district fronting King Street express a modestly higher built form typology of 14 to 17 storeys, which is appropriate and perfectly acceptable. But the OMB's approval for four new towers at the Front and Sherbourne intersection ranging in height from 26 to 29 storeys (31 including mechanical penthouse) is an affront to established planning principals and should never have been allowed to happen.
September 11, 2016:
The white precast building in the foreground with the mansard style penthouse floor is 222 The Esplanade. At 12 storeys, it marks the tallest residential building in the neighbourhood. The two most northerly buildings on the Pemberton site just to the west of 222 The Esplanade will be two and a half times taller.
September 11, 2016:
The white precast building in the foreground with the mansard style penthouse floor is 222 The Esplanade. At 12 storeys, it marks the tallest residential building in the neighbourhood. The two most northerly buildings on the Pemberton site just to the west of 222 The Esplanade will be two and a half times taller.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
While I appreciate your heartfelt post, I'm completely unmoved by any of that. Planning through strict adherence to a narrow, preconceived notion of what is 'good' in terms of height and density (among other things) just isn't the way that I'd like my city to grow. Thank god for the OMB...
Northern Light
Superstar
I'm curious, Project End, when you look at Cities and areas around the world, what is it you envision as being the most desirable places to visit?
Everyone's tastes are different, of course.
But for many, it's Cities like Paris, Vienna, Barcelona which have far more strict planning controls than Toronto.
I have no issues/height/density.
But I do think there is such a thing as continuity of character in a given area, one that can help provide real choice.
Let there be highrise areas, and mid and low.
Let there be spaces that blend these well.
Let there be areas that celebrate modern or pomo or deco or Edwardian architecture.............and let there be those that blend them well.
But to allow developments which have the effect of gutting all that is desirable out of an area, to me, is the antithesis of good planning.
The OMB was never created to second-guess municipal planners.
Its job was essentially to ensure politics didn't interfere w/a fair interpretation of planning rules.
Historically, over-ruling planners, where a decision was not overtly politicized or unfair was very rare.
The change over the last 20 years, has not been, on balance, for the best, in my opinion.
Last edited:
NY99
Active Member
Is there any recourse for the city?
Or is this development a done deal?
Or is this development a done deal?
DSC
Superstar
Member Bio
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2008
- Messages
- 18,626
- Reaction score
- 25,359
- Location
- St Lawrence Market Area
The OMB has spoken - it's (another) done deal.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
to be fair this was a settlement not a full hearing, which means that the city agreed to the approval.
torontologist
Active Member
The city agreed to a different site plan, however, with more POPS public space. Does anyone know if the redesign affects the decision? I remember reading a condition in the agreement for 40% POPS coverage. The new plan has significantly less.
torontologist
Active Member
.... answering my own question: the 40% number was part of the agreement, the OMB order will not be final until the city has drafted the zoning bylaw amendment AND the engineering reports have been approved by the city. The new site plan has only 28% POPS. So this isn't over, yet.
Hoping the city puts up a fight.
Hoping the city puts up a fight.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Though is POPS the issue the city should fight over? I'd gladly have no POPs whatsoever in this scheme, use the space for building to lower the bulk of the structure.
AoD
torontologist
Active Member
I don't think we're going to get anything close to the surrounding structures, the tallest of which is 12 storeys. It tops off at 33 now, with the elimination of the POPS, we'd get a reduction of 5 storeys, max. They still need to break even after paying way too much for this site. I don't think there's much of a difference between 28 and 33 storeys. Both ruin the mid-rise feel of the neighbourhood. The best we can ask for is POPS and slightly-less-mediocre architecture.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
That, and what about the amount of parking - is 10s worth of it really necessary? De-bulk the project - height isn't necessarily the issue per se, especially at the northern half of the site (given G&M's pretty close by)
AoD
Northern Light
Superstar
I might agree w/you on 28 vs 33; but I would suggest there is considerable room to do set-backs instead, which could reduce the 'apparent' size of the structure. No, it's not ideal, or enough, but it would be much better than what's proposed.
I hasten to add I see the POPS proposal as weak and uninspired, new greenspace for the area should be forthcoming on the First Parliament site and south of St. Lawrence Market.
Better to focus on architectural treatment and massing here.
Last edited:
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
In fact I am not sure why we need any POPS at all, especially where it is located on the site - when David Crombie Park is right across Esplanade. The break on the Esplanade facade actually weakens the monumentality of St. Lawrence.
AoD
Last edited:
torontologist
Active Member
Agreed, however meaningful architectural flourish is pretty much a non-starter in the Toronto market, and the previous site plan had a step-down to an appropriate 10 stories on the Esplanade. The developers are going to go as high as they can, no matter what. Better to have two slimmer towers than a Borg-block (...resistance is futile).