Johnny Au
Senior Member
...and more McDonald's to approach the midtown Manhattan McDonald's density.
Oh, and more Starbucks too:
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Toronto Rental Cost (& AirBnB) Issues
- Thread starter jje1000
- Start date
Oh, and more Starbucks too:
jje1000
Senior Member
jje1000
Senior Member
Dare we say that high rental and house prices can dampen the entrepreneurial spirit of a city (especially a second-tier one)? More troubling is the fact that the young professional class is also the most mobile one- they can head to greener pastures if they can't find what they need here.
https://www.thestar.com/business/re...ring-the-citys-ability-to-attract-talent.html
https://www.thestar.com/business/re...ring-the-citys-ability-to-attract-talent.html
jje1000
Senior Member
More troubles for Toronto affordability:
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...very-corner-of-toronto-has-downtown-rent.html
TheKingEast
Senior Member
Well when you bring in rent controls and handcuff landlords, rent goes up. Rents were high before then Wynne pushed them even further with her stupid changes.
Neglected the the affordable housing issue just like they ignored public transit issues. An indictment on our do nothing government.
City is unaffordabke now. Average joe can’t even afford a condo.
Neglected the the affordable housing issue just like they ignored public transit issues. An indictment on our do nothing government.
City is unaffordabke now. Average joe can’t even afford a condo.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
My mind hasn't been made up yet on the issue, and I'm generally a classical liberal who believes in free markets, but I personally have not seen any difference.
I have moved on average once a year in the last 15 years. The rate of rent increase has been exponential for at least the last 5 or 6 years and did not change after the new rent controls were enacted.
A massive problem has been investor landlords who are in it thinking it's quick and easy money, like drug dealing. They have no conception of the rules governing landlord and tenant relations. They drive up prices based on advice from their estate agents who profit from their greed (and it is greed in a lot of cases) and profit most with high turnover. High turnover, obviously leads to high rent increases, driving profits for the estate agents.
It's a complicated mess, with very many contributing factors, and as far as I can tell, the new rent controls have had negligible (if any) impact thus far.
jje1000
Senior Member
It's definitely the equivalent of a Gordian knot. No single strand will solve this issue alone.
A toxic combination of foreign interests looking to park their monies, local homeowners/investors/property management looking to make a quick buck on the increases, and a genuine lack of supply caused by population growth and units possibly being left empty as assets.
Unfortunately, the government has no guaranteed way of resolving this beyond either capping maximum rent (goes against free market), or introducing enough low-priced supply (Vienna-izing the market) to tank rental costs. I still think that opening up the Yellow Belts of Toronto for fast conversion into multi-unit housing (within the existing built form, with possibilities of future intensification) is a good way of creating rapid supply, though there's probably no guarantee that that'll halt the increases in price.
A toxic combination of foreign interests looking to park their monies, local homeowners/investors/property management looking to make a quick buck on the increases, and a genuine lack of supply caused by population growth and units possibly being left empty as assets.
Unfortunately, the government has no guaranteed way of resolving this beyond either capping maximum rent (goes against free market), or introducing enough low-priced supply (Vienna-izing the market) to tank rental costs. I still think that opening up the Yellow Belts of Toronto for fast conversion into multi-unit housing (within the existing built form, with possibilities of future intensification) is a good way of creating rapid supply, though there's probably no guarantee that that'll halt the increases in price.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Half (or more?) the problem is the massive waste of space that is most of Toronto: a sea of single-family homes. Blow them up and start again, he said, only half-joking.
It's a massive waste of space. Toronto, in its geographical area, could easily support a population at least three times current numbers.
It's decades of shit planning compounded with some contemporary desirability and money issues thrown in to complicate things.
Toronto's sea of single-family detached neighbourhoods needs to die.
It's a massive waste of space. Toronto, in its geographical area, could easily support a population at least three times current numbers.
It's decades of shit planning compounded with some contemporary desirability and money issues thrown in to complicate things.
Toronto's sea of single-family detached neighbourhoods needs to die.
Northern Light
Superstar
Using that logic, you would have expected lots of new rental supply during the pre-Wynne era.
In fact, there was almost none.
Purpose-built rental construction is, finally, rising again after a 30-year lull, but not at a pace that will make a huge difference to the market.
Further, almost all of the new supply is targeted at the high end of the market.
Vacancy de-control still exists, for better or worse.
What's changed is the rules on tenants in buildings built after 1991.
There is very little purpose built rental in this period; so the main impact is to change the rules for condo-investors who sub-let.
I have no difficulty w/this as condos were never conceived to be a sub-let, they were meant to be owner-occupied.
If this actually caused some to sell, great, that would lower the cost of ownership, which would in turn cause some people to vacate existing rental, helping re-balance the market.
But there is little evidence to suggest that this has made a material difference at anything other than the margins.
Northern Light
Superstar
I agree w/you over-all thesis, and I'm certainly open to intensification as part of the solution.
However, I think the biggest thing is to look at exactly what was going on the last time this market had a private-sector apartment building boom, that is not happening now.
The answer to that is gov't issues or guaranteed mortgages. The requirement was that the reduction in borrowing costs be passed on as lower rents.
It worked.
CMHC and a couple of other agencies backed hundreds of mortgages and lowered the construction finance costs by something like 7 percentage points (remember the 60s and 70s had higher interest rates).
Today, if we lowered construction finance to the same borrowing cost as government, you'd be looking at around a 4-5 point reduction.
That could shave off almost 40% of financing costs or something like 20% of the cost of a development.
If that were passed through in the market price, a $2,300 market-rent apartment in a new build drops to $1,840
Not exactly cheap, but given that new units would have ensuite laundry, central air and a dishwasher, it would put extreme pressure on conventional landlords to either up their game
or drop their prices.
That strikes me as key.
Northern Light
Superstar
While there are plenty of subdivisions for which I would shed no tear, I will take only a small issue w/this and say if we avoided the politics re-doing whole subdivisions and instead focused on their edges, we achieve most of the same gain at lower financial and political cost.
What's really grating is not the post-war bungalows between Victoria Park and Warden, its the post-war bungalows ON Victoria Park and Warden.
If we simply focus on upzoning the main streets, the market should begin to tackle this issue.
Though, let me add, there is a direct role for government in providing for more non-profit and co-op housing as part of the mix as well.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Well, yeah, those particular ones are an actual travesty. A true heinous crime against efficiency and good sense and aesthetics and nature and the soul.
Am I being dramatic? ........
.....nah, it's actually some of the dumbest planning I've ever seen (along with surface car parks the size of a village).
It's not even planning, really. That was someone using the fattest brush available in whatever software and painting most of Toronto the same colour, so to speak.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
Interesting comments around American astonishment at the amount of high rise construction in Toronto centred on how this City could be building so much, so centrally, and with units so affordable?
So from outside we’re building a ton of affordable units. Internally we are complaining about a meat-grinder of constraint supply and inflated costs. The reality is probably in between.
Toronto was exceptionally affordable a few decades ago and the run-up in rental costs probably is just bringing it up to international levels relative to it’s peer group with a bit of hubris overshoot.
So from outside we’re building a ton of affordable units. Internally we are complaining about a meat-grinder of constraint supply and inflated costs. The reality is probably in between.
Toronto was exceptionally affordable a few decades ago and the run-up in rental costs probably is just bringing it up to international levels relative to it’s peer group with a bit of hubris overshoot.
toaster29
Active Member
It was affordable 4 years ago. Not a few decades ago.
Filip
Senior Member
As a property owner - I can maybe add some context to why I'll never rent.
The new rules put in place by the Wynne government give me very little recourse in case something goes wrong. I also no longer have control over my own property because I can't even evict someone for my personal use - I have to pay them rent! That's not right, is it?
I may be leaving for a work placement to Paris for a year. Under normal circumstances I would have looked at renting it out for the year - today? Not a bloody chance in hell. I'll give my mother the keys and let her monitor the place every few weeks.
The new rules put in place by the Wynne government give me very little recourse in case something goes wrong. I also no longer have control over my own property because I can't even evict someone for my personal use - I have to pay them rent! That's not right, is it?
I may be leaving for a work placement to Paris for a year. Under normal circumstances I would have looked at renting it out for the year - today? Not a bloody chance in hell. I'll give my mother the keys and let her monitor the place every few weeks.