Toronto Hullmark Centre | 167.94m | 45s | Tridel | Kirkor Architects

[Marcanadian]

Friday:

North York by Marcus Mitanis, on Flickr

North York by Marcus Mitanis, on Flickr

 

[Angus]

Here is a photo from 1911 Yonge and Sheppard. White Pines and skates. Also looks like a street car. Did not know the street car ran up Yonge.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The old inter urban ran all the way up to Newmarket. There is still exposed track in Newmarket in one of their downtown parking lots, I believe.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Here is a photo from 1911 Yonge and Sheppard. White Pines and skates. Also looks like a street car. Did not know the street car ran up Yonge.

View attachment 57473

Same view,.... about 100 years later,..... that old wooden pole in front corner of the Dempsey Store was basically where the steel pole at the corner with the TTC bus stop is in the newer photo,...

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

So here's an interesting discussion about the office condos at HullmarkCentre,....
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...t-hariri-pontarini.21100/page-10#post-1061332
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...t-hariri-pontarini.21100/page-11#post-1061352

As I've stated numerous times,... 80% of the office condos at Hullmark Centre are empty! Now keep in mind, I walk by HullmarkCentre multiple times basically everyday! Yet, some posters (who don't even live in the area) seem to doubt the accuracy of my observations,... and even call them "anecdotal observations",.... interestingly, I can always back-up what I post,.... yet, they're not even willing to stand by what they post,....

Anyways,... as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words,.... so here's a few pictures,...

First, here's the rendering of HullmarkCentre,.... which shows what the office condo would look like 80% full and all lit up,... Remember south tower is 35 storey condo; 5 storey podium has office condo on floor 3, 4 & 5; north tower has 12 storeys of office condo structure at base with 33 storey condo structure on top.

At this time of the year, the sun starts to set around 4pm and by 5pm when most folks get off work, it's starts to get quite dark outside,.... around 4:30pm is a great time to take photos of the conditon at HullmarkCentre office condo since all office lighting can be easily seen through the exterior glass,.... especially these newer offices which usually have very bright LED lighting,... of course, this works on the assumption that occupied office condos will have office lighting on,... whereas empty office condos will not have any office lighting on,.... and as you can see, these photos show that about 80% of the office condos at HullmarkCentre do NOT have interior lights on and are thus EMPTY!

Oh,... and just in case if posters like AutomationGallery start thinking these photos must have been taken on weekend when most offices are closed,.... all photos of HullmarkCentre office condo include surrounding office buildings that are lit up like Christmas trees,... thus, that's how you know these photos were taken on working business days during the regular work week.

The 2 most popular side,... facing Yonge & Sheppard,... HullmarkCentre North Tower offices and Podium offices,..... notice Sheppard Centre South Tower office building to left - with all office lights on!

Looking at HullmarkCentre North Tower north and east side,.... notice Proctor&Gamble office building to left and Nestle Building to right,... both lit up like Christmas Trees,...

Looking at HullmarkCentre North Tower east side,.... notice to right: SheppardCentre South Tower office building all lit up!

Looking at HullmarkCentre North Tower south and east side,.... notice to right: SheppardCentre South Tower office building all lit up

Close up shot of HullmarkCentre North Tower south side and Podium offices east side,....

Expanded shot of HullmarkCentre North Tower south side and Podium offices east side,.... Notice Nestle Building (office tower) lit up at left between green EmeraldPark and HullmarkCentre South Tower (residential)

HullmarkCentre office podium with offices on floor 3, 4 & 5 - Not a single occupied office condo on west side facing Yonge Street - that vertical row of interior light is for the elevator area of each floor - see it's directly above the elevator lobby for office podium,... notice at left: Sheppard Centre South Tower office building all lit up,...

HullmarkCentre office podium with offices on floor 3, 4 & 5 - Not a single occupied office condo on west side facing Yonge Street,.... notice at left: Sheppard Centre South Tower office building,.... looking north on Yonge Street,... then Sheppard Centre shorter North Tower office building,.. and then Royal Bank office building (golden building with triangular top),..... they're all lit up,...

There you go,.... photographic proof of Hullmark Centre office condos being 80% empty! As you can clearly see, since all the surrounding office buildings are lit up like Christmas trees,... these photos of HullmarkCentre Office Condos in North Tower and Podium were taken during regular business hours during the work week,..... Thus, the real question is why are HullmarkCentre office condos still empty when they were released to buyers over a year ago in 2014.

Or are these photos still too,.... "anecdotal"???

 

[taal]

So I know I've disagreed with you in the past but let me clarify; With office condos, it's really hard to determine, as folks can list their units through many different companies;

Anyways referring back to altusinsite:
http://www.altusinsite.com/index.ph...name=Hullmark&searchbyabldgbtn=Find+Buildings

It shows about 8K of space for lease (from various companies, which speaks to my point above: tridel / DTZ / Royal Lepage / ...) and also 7K worth of space for space. So that's a total of 15K out of 165K, so not much.

With all that said keep in mind there's a good chance altus doesn't really keep track of the majority of units that are for lease through various private agencies.


Anyway here's the thing ... is anyone disagreeing with you ? I haven't been following this thread closely so maybe, but Ok, you're right, a lot of space is still for lease though likely NOT FOR SALE, pretty sure Tidel sold just about everything to someone; Just like Aura, which doesn't imply they're doing well or in demand ..

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

So I know I've disagreed with you in the past but let me clarify; With office condos, it's really hard to determine, as folks can list their units through many different companies;

Anyways referring back to altusinsite:
http://www.altusinsite.com/index.ph...name=Hullmark&searchbyabldgbtn=Find+Buildings

It shows about 8K of space for lease (from various companies, which speaks to my point above: tridel / DTZ / Royal Lepage / ...) and also 7K worth of space for space. So that's a total of 15K out of 165K, so not much.

With all that said keep in mind there's a good chance altus doesn't really keep track of the majority of units that are for lease through various private agencies.


Anyway here's the thing ... is anyone disagreeing with you ? I haven't been following this thread closely so maybe, but Ok, you're right, a lot of space is still for lease though likely NOT FOR SALE, pretty sure Tidel sold just about everything to someone; Just like Aura, which doesn't imply they're doing well or in demand ..

City records shows what you've been saying,.... that basically all the office condos at HullmarkCentre North Tower and podium were sold,...

You're making the assumption that buyers of office condos are the same as buyers of regular large office space formats,.... in that there's only 2 types,... one type that buy office space for their own use (to open their own offices),.... or another that'll rent out/lease/sublease or even sell that office space for investment income,.....

But for office condo there's a third type,...... and they make up the majority of the buyers,.... and that's why 80% of the office condos are empty!!! Taal,... if you figure out who this third type of office condo buyers are,.. then you've figure out the scam!

 

[taal]

City records shows what you've been saying,.... that basically all the office condos at HullmarkCentre North Tower and podium were sold,...

You're making the assumption that buyers of office condos are the same as buyers of regular large office space formats,.... in that there's only 2 types,... one type that buy office space for their own use (to open their own offices),.... or another that'll rent out/lease/sublease or even sell that office space for investment income,.....

But for office condo there's a third type,...... and they make up the majority of the buyers,.... and that's why 80% of the office condos are empty!!! Taal,... if you figure out who this third type of office condo buyers are,.. then you've figure out the scam!

I'm quite curious in this case how the 2 other (and one very large) condo office buildings being built / proposed are: The one in Yorkville; I could see this selling well to private clinics / doctors / ... given the location; And then the huge 400K+ building proposed by the Gupta group (I believe that's the name) at Yonge and Yorkmills; Where the TTC was at one point talking about moving their HQ too.

 

[Automation Gallery]

.. if you figure out who this third type of office condo buyers are,.. then you've figure out the scam!

Come-on sunnyray, this conspiracy and scam is all in your mind

 

[ponyboy]

I'm not in the business but am curious about these high vacancies among office condos. Is this third type of buyer the individual investor that is just sitting on the units? I know that a lot of Asian investors sit on residential condos, not renting them out. Is this the same thing with office condos? Obviously they are not acting like a REIT trying to generate income. If the shadow vacancy rate is so high, should we be more worried about future downward rent pressure in the office space? Will this shadow office inventory put the value of office REITs under more pressure in the future? The likes of DREAM REIT have done poorly recently, largely because of Alberta, but is this a warning for Toronto as well? Thanks for the hard work, gumshoe!

 

[taal]

I'm not in the business but am curious about these high vacancies among office condos. Is this third type of buyer the individual investor that is just sitting on the units? I know that a lot of Asian investors sit on residential condos, not renting them out. Is this the same thing with office condos? Obviously they are not acting like a REIT trying to generate income. If the shadow vacancy rate is so high, should we be more worried about future downward rent pressure in the office space? Will this shadow office inventory put the value of office REITs under more pressure in the future? The likes of DREAM REIT have done poorly recently, largely because of Alberta, but is this a warning for Toronto as well? Thanks for the hard work, gumshoe!

There are probably 3 or 4 office condos in the GTA; Its a none issue re: overall vacancy ... so no, no worry at all. All other commercial buildings are well reported there isn't "shadow office vacancy" ... you need to make sure you look at total inventory though which includes sublease space which is very common.

I think Calgary has huge problems; It's not just of the energy market it's more: They're a city that has really yet to see many firms start moving to smaller more modern layouts (like them or not) in Toronto this has been happening for years, and will continue to do so but many of the large players have already done such moves. This is why you often see (e.g. Airmiles) moving into a new building taking on the same or maybe a little less space yet employing significantly more people in that space. I wager the big oil companies will start moving toward this as well. Now this doesn't hurt the city so to speak, its still the same amount of people working, but there's less demand going forward as more people can fit in the same space.

 

[BigZ]

 

[Suiseiseki]

City records shows what you've been saying,.... that basically all the office condos at HullmarkCentre North Tower and podium were sold,...

You're making the assumption that buyers of office condos are the same as buyers of regular large office space formats,.... in that there's only 2 types,... one type that buy office space for their own use (to open their own offices),.... or another that'll rent out/lease/sublease or even sell that office space for investment income,.....

But for office condo there's a third type,...... and they make up the majority of the buyers,.... and that's why 80% of the office condos are empty!!! Taal,... if you figure out who this third type of office condo buyers are,.. then you've figure out the scam!

Now that it has been three months and it doesn't appear anyone knows what third type of buyer you're talking about is... would you mind spelling it out for us?

Is it just Hullmark buying it's own property to make it look like the office condo units are sold, although vacant?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Now that it has been three months and it doesn't appear anyone knows what third type of buyer you're talking about is... would you mind spelling it out for us?

Is it just Hullmark buying it's own property to make it look like the office condo units are sold, although vacant?

First of all, it's not like we've had 3 months worth of conversation about this issue. That said, out of all the posts here and on other threads,.... PonyBoy is closest, PonyBoy is partly right and definitely on the right track.


Tridel is definitely not buying up their own properties to make the numbers look good. Tridel HullmarkCentre completely sold out,... basically all the residential condo units sold out before construction started, all the office condo sold shortly there after construction started, all retail space were committed by then as well,... except one (Chipotle) bailed before construction finished and that site is now being renovated for spa (between WholeFoodsMarket @ HullmarkCentre south TTC entrance)

BTW, you may see a Tridel arm Del-Reality or whatever selling/renting/leasing Tridel HullmarkCentre residential or office condo units but that's usually on behalf of the real owner,... Tridel believe in their product and know their product well,... so they're often the best folks to represent their products on behalf of the owner.


Look Tridel don't have to buy up their own condos,... Tridel has such a solid reputation in the industry for it's quality build product,... if Tridel ever has any problem selling any of their units,... then you know the real estate market must be crashing and nobody is buying!


North York Centre has 3 developments with office condo (HullmarkCentre, EmeraldPark and 4050 Yonge (pre-construction)),.... and I've seen how this office condo scam works. And I've been warning people here about it,... but most don't care, all they care about is getting buildings developed as tall as possible,.... and anything that possibly interferes with that and they and their conspiracy theories just start accusing me of having ulterior motives,.... See some of my recent postings on various midtown developments and you'll see what I'm talking about. But really,... why bother,... let them get a few office condos in midtown or other areas of Toronto and then let's see if they can figure out why 80% of those office condo space will be empty.

I'm usually more than willing to share information,... but then I get posters like AutomationGallery trolling me (See post# 1569) posting crap that obviously doesn't add anything of value. His post doesn't encourage an intelligent conversation,... so why bother?


That said, Tridel HullmarkCentre is well aware that there's a serious problem,... all their office condo units are sold but 80% are sitting empty,.... See the attachment below,... a few days ago, Tridel HullmarkCentre Corporate offices hosted an Open House Information Session with Free Breakfast targeted at office condo owners,... to teach office condo owners how to market, sell, renovate their office condos,.... very informative, had numerous industry folks like renovator, builders, construction, designer, architect, brokers, agents, agents and more agents!, etc,... on hand to help the office condo folks,.... Funny things is there were more of those industry folks trying to sell their services,... than office condo owners! Not complaining at all,... plenty of free breakfast food for me!!!

City Planning is pissed - they know they've been scammed, City Planning was expecting real offices here representing real employment area providing real jobs,... instead 80% of the office space sits empty! End of the day,... I think that Open House was really just a scam,... for Tridel HullmarkCentre to show City Planning that Tridel HullmarkCentre isn't to blame,... that Tridel HullmarkCentre is trying to do their best to promote these Office Condo to be occupied instead of just sitting empty. That said, if you know who the vast majority of these office condo buyers are,.. you'd realize, there's no way they would show up to these Open House Information Session,.... free breakfast or not,....

 

[Automation Gallery]

let's see if they can figure out why 80% of those office condo space will be empty.

I'm usually more than willing to share information,... but then I get posters like AutomationGallery trolling me (See post# 1569) posting crap that obviously doesn't add anything of value. His post doesn't encourage an intelligent conversation,... so why bother?

all their office condo units are sold but 80% are sitting empty,....

... instead 80% of the office space sits empty!

Hahaha, I'm not trolling, .... but i think that you are inaccurate of what you keep saying
By the way.....you have mentioned the 80% three times in this same post,