Toronto First Parliament Site | ?m | ?s

The price the government must pay to expropriate IS based on market value. Trying to claim that market value in this case should be based on it being appropriate for a 57-storey tower is ludicrous, obnoxious, and insulting.

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In your opinion perhaps. However the guy who bought the land and maybe carried for nine years may feel otherwise - especially with the developments that council has been approving all over downtown these days - he'd be a fool not to try. Actually it's unlikely he will get that value but he is right to push the envelope and get as much as he can. Why would he or anyone do otherwise? Thats how capitalism works.
 
Looks nice, but then again im starting to think that this vision of a commemorative building on private property is more of a fantasy than the actual 57 storey..(say they get 32-35 floors put through the city or OMB) structure planned for this location..dont know its a toss-up.:confused:

The 57 floor proposal is clearly a bargaining card (overplayed in my opinion) and discussions are going on between the City, the Ontario Heritage Foundation, Waterfront Toronto and the car-wash owners about a land-swap to give the OHF the car-wash quadrant (to add to the ex-Porsche one they already own) and give the car-wash folks some or all of the lot on east side of Parliament Street where there is the TPA parking lot and the Toronto Public Library processing centre. The City planners ahve been told to report to Community Council in the summer. It may not work out but it is certainly a real proposal and is, I understand, moving slowly forward. (I agree with Big Daddy that the owner of the car-wash site - which I think he has owned for many years - is within his rights to get the maximum value for his land but I still think that trying for 57 floors in an area zoned for 15 is over the top.)
 
(I agree with Big Daddy that the owner of the car-wash site - which I think he has owned for many years - is within his rights to get the maximum value for his land but I still think that trying for 57 floors in an area zoned for 15 is over the top.)

But he knows - as do we - that the 57 floor proposal isn't likely to get approved – maybe he gets something like 47 - that’s how you negotiate. This way he is likely to get substantially more than he would have without the proposal. Plus he has precedent on his side – just look at what is being approved these days.
 
You're dreaming at 47 storeys. Let's not forget the other tower as well. The density applied for must be absolute insanity compare to what is being proposed and built in this neighbourhood. Precedence? WTF? Just in case you bring up the Distillery District consider how massive a site it is for what it being built.

It's unfortunate the process to aquire this land has lasted for decades. You would think the province/city could spare a few million and expropriate instead of cheaping out by taking the land swap route.
 
In your opinion perhaps. However the guy who bought the land and maybe carried for nine years may feel otherwise - especially with the developments that council has been approving all over downtown these days - he'd be a fool not to try. Actually it's unlikely he will get that value but he is right to push the envelope and get as much as he can. Why would he or anyone do otherwise? Thats how capitalism works.

The site is of immense cultural value, so doing everything to make it as hard to acquire as possible is taking it too far. When capitalism is interpreted as making as much money as you can without any other considerations, it fails, like with the collapse of several American banks that began the recession we're now in.
 
The site is of immense cultural value, so doing everything to make it as hard to acquire as possible is taking it too far. When capitalism is interpreted as making as much money as you can without any other considerations, it fails, like with the collapse of several American banks that began the recession we're now in.

The definitions aren't clear. The banking system described above is corporatism because of the collusion with government. Relevant to the topic at hand would be compulsory monopoly on currency; centralized banking along with controlled (i.e. not market set) interest rates; the privatization of profits and the socialization of losses (bailouts & the resulting moral hazards as well as corporate personhood); a plethora of regulations; etc.

The price the government must pay to expropriate IS based on market value. Trying to claim that market value in this case should be based on it being appropriate for a 57-storey tower is ludicrous, obnoxious, and insulting.

The fact that the government expropriates by first extorting money from innocent people is greedy, ludicrous and insulting.
 
How is it that a 'library' is the right use for a national historic site? I'd be pretty irked if they were to appropriate private property for that, quite frankly. It shows an utter lack of imagination for one of the most hallowed sites in the nation, and yes a little hyperbole is in order here. What an embarrassment this would be. Other ideas? Any inspiration???
 
I think a public square or park would be most appropriate for this site, along with something to signify the historical importance of the site. There is no sense in making it more complicated than it is. What would be really cool in my mind is something like Trafalgar Square in London-- with a column in the middle commemorating the parliament or someone of related importance. Might I suggest David Thomson, pioneer settler of Scarborough, and the builder of the First Parliament buildings. Think about it-- Toronto has no other significant column save for the war memorial on University Avenue, and it is not really that accessible or enjoyable. The First Parliament location is an ideal spot for a new centre-point for the neighbourhood-- with the Pan Am village coming soon and the general wave of residential development spreading out from the core.

Wouldn't it be really awesome for Toronto?
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I like the idea here: like Trafalgar, the Dam Square in Amsterdam or the Columbus monument in Barcelona are pedestrian magnets, both for locals and tourists. Put the library/museum part in an underground chamber with ceiling windows for light to stream down on exhibits.
 
^^^

Those ideas make too much sense and are too awesome to ever happen. I have little faith that the city or its "planners" have the vision to conceive of or execute something that audacious.
 
I like the idea of some sort of park/urban space/monument and was thinking along the lines of the place Rioppelle in Montreal where a combination of monument and fountain with the use of mist, fire and lighting creates an attraction that changes from moment to moment and day to night. It feels interactive, or at least engaging, and draws lots of people who come just to appreciate the space and the installation, which in the end draws far more people than would those coming to sign out books at a library.

Using these sorts of devices along with historical markers, symbolism and perhaps lighting projections at night, or 'ghost' structures etc during the day... along with lots of park benches and plantings and so on would create another important destination for 'Old Town' Toronto, would validate/celebrate the national historic site and would create a meaningful, central urban space for emerging neighbourhoods too.

A library, really?

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The city needs to think on the whole downtown/waterfront princinct level. What we have now, in bits and pieces, can be pulled together into a great pedestrian experience of the downtown. The pedestrian 10 to 20 years from now might enjoy a walk, ( relatively unobstructed ), all the way from the West Don Lands and the Distillery District, through to the ACC/Rogers blvd., and then, through the important and suddenly visible Fort York site, then over the tracks on a stunning pedestrian bridge to the waterfront and back eastward to the Sherbourne Common ,and beyond. Tourists, and residents alike , will find the " identity " of Toronto a fine one indeed.
 
Toronto Public Libraries are one of the best managed libraries in the world and is modeled after in other countries. I don't use them often enough, but it is a source of pride in this city that should definitely be appreciated. New and remodeled libraries in this city are quite impressive and are definitely a great use of public space.

Another thing to consider is that once this area becomes more populated a library is going to be needed. Now there is one nearby at 171 Front Street that despite the fact I'm in SLM a lot, it has gone unnoticed to me. Any idea what this library is like and what it's capacity is?

While I think this site would be great to have a library, I wouldn't want it to be limited to that sole use. A public library, monument, and outdoor public space at a minimum. But definitely a multi-purpose destination.
 
The SLM Library at 171 Front Street (my local branch) is tiny and busy - the new library (wherever it goes) will REPLACE it. The original plan was to build it where the existing library "Service Centre" now is on Front just east of Parliament and the new idea (hardly a plan yet) is to swap that site with Mr Car Wash and build an "iconic" library on part of the First Parliament site.
 
Not to take anything away from the great work the Toronto library system may do or from the importance of libraries in general (though in an increasingly digital age we could be excused for questioning just how long or widely they will continue to be of general use) but this is a national historic site. I just can't really say it any more simply. I know that Toronto has very little sense of its history and seems to hate almost anything symbolic or that isn't entirely functional but why not lets dare to envision something bold here. Just 'here'. I can't think of too many other sites, in the Toronto area at least, where an argument/case for such a gesture might stand but even a shred of a chance.
 

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