Toronto Emerald Park Condos | 128.92m | 40s | Bazis | Rosario Varacalli

[sunnyraytoronto]

Don't know about Emerald Park itself, but much of the area supports cycle tracks based on the REImaging Yonge study! Too bad for the others that like to treat this area as a freeway rather than contributing to the area. Hope they use Bathurst and Bayview more to get to the 401!

Many of the folks who use Yonge Street as a freeway as you call it,... also live in the high density condos of the Yonge Corridor in the NorthYorkCentreSecondaryPlan from 401 to FinchHydroCorridor which will continue to host more new developments. And of course now the YongeStreetNorthSecondaryPlan area (north of FinchHydroCorridor to Steeles) and all the high density development 905 will be building on their side of Steeles will start soon too. Of course all these new high-density developments need the proper infrastructure to support them including cycling and adequate traffic capacity on various roadways; especially since Yonge Subway line only goes up to Finch with no plans for extension for at least another 30 years.

Actually, Bathurst isn't even a full interchange for Highway 401, it just as a couple of ramps; thus it's much safer for cyclist to use Bathurst to cross 401 VS Yonge-401 interchange.


Actually, your statement "much of the area supports cycle tracks based on the REImaging Yonge study" is wrong.

I participated in every stage of community consultation for ReImagining Yonge Street Study,.... most of the participants wanted changes to the streetscape on Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre,... since CityPlanning has been relying on development for those changes over the years while City have been constantly changing their own template! Thus, Yonge Street streetscape as elements from Post WW2 to SheppardCentre moat of 1970's to sunken marble blocks sidewalk of NorthYorkCityCentre of 1980's to new format pedestrian sidewalk design with in-ground tree planters as found in front of Tridel HullmarkCentre and Bazis EmeraldPark. Plus, there's the incomplete tree-lined centre medians which was originally supported by the communities in mid-1990's as part of the adaptation of the North York Centre Secondary Plan which started to allow for high density residential development right on Yonge Street (only offices were allowed previously) in exchange for wider pedestrian sidewalks and tree-lined centre median. Problem is the tree-lined centre median only got built on Yonge Street from about Greenfield Ave to Parkview Ave,... instead of from Highway 401 up to Finch Hydro Corridor as originally planned because Mayor Mel Lastman rediverted that money to save the North York Centre For Performing Arts.

But what should be the changes the ReImagining Yonge Street Study should design for? There was two equal sides,... one side strongly supported tree-lined centre median and tress on the pedestrian sidewalk,... whereas the other groups strongly suppported cycling infrastructure on Yonge Street.

PipolChap, you're mistake is in assuming that all the participants of the ReImagining Yonge Street Study were locals from the area,.... Walk down Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre and pay attention to the ethnicity of the people you come across. Click on the "Consultation" tab and go through the slides looking at the photos of the participants,.... there's not many of the local Korean, Persian or Chinese demographic represented,...
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=a331edb9b72d3510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Every cycling study the city has done over the years shows local cycling participation in NorthYorkCentre is actually below the city average of 1%. Why? Simple,.. all the high density developments do not encourage cycling - the high density condo residents already live within walking distance of most places they want to go along Yonge Street! For each condo development, the city requires about 1 bike parking space for every 10 condo units; when there's an average of 2.5 people living in a condo unit, that's at most 1 bike for every 25 condo resident. The city requires basically 1 car parking space for every single condo unit on average,.... thus for every bike parking space, there's 10 car parking space in a condo development. Do you think condo residents of NorthYorkCentre favour cycling infrastructure at the cost of losing traffic lanes, losing parking lanes on Yonge Street and far more gridlock traffic congestion in the area?

And make no mistake as their traffic modelling for 15 years shows on page 10 of their proposal,.... the traffic gridlock caused by eliminating 2 lanes of traffic on Yonge Street will be huge,... imagine what traffic was like here 15 years ago compared to now,... 15 years ago all the Avondale Community Condominiums were still under construction, now there's about 20 condo towers in the area,.... and about 50 new condo towers added to NorthYorkCentreSecondaryPlan area,..... that gives you an idea of what 15 years of traffic congestion looks like,... Now imagine all the development going forward to the next 15 years (actually even more development since YongeStreetNorthSecondaryPlan area and 905-side high density development adding to the mix as well),..... Now when they eliminate 2 traffic lanes on Yonge Street,... that forward 15 years worth of congestion in this area will double!,... during peak time on Yonge Street, Doris Ave, Beecroft Road and onto the surrounding neighbourhood roads as well.

Furthermore, the ethnic demographic of the high-density condominium residents of NorthYorkCentre tends to be Korean, Persian and Chinese,... if you look on Yonge Street, they're more likely to be driving by in their Mercedes, BMW, or expensive sports car,.... most cyclists tend to be white males.

Bottom line,... the area locals were voting for the tree-lined centre median,.... but the non-locals were voting for cycling infrastructure on Yonge Street. How do I know? I've been advocating for various area improvements including cycling infrastructures for years and I spotted a number of cycling advocates from outside the area at ReImagining Yonge Street Study community consultation meetings,.... Here's the twitter account from CycleToronto encouraging their members to come show up at these meetings: https://twitter.com/cycleyonge?lang=en

Is it really shocking that's it's so easy to skew the results at city community consultation meetings? Even though there's over 100,000 residents in this Ward 23,... many are Korean, Persian and Chinese,... ethnicities that generally don't participate in local politics and community consultation meetings. Often there was more city staff and consultants than local residents present at these community consultation meetings! Out of ReImagining Yonge Street Study summer long project, there was probably just 200 distinct participants,... and at the end, only about 40 showed up at the final community meeting,.... and when I gave my on-line feedback on the last possible weekend, my feedback number was in the mid-30s. So, do you think it's difficult to skew these results?


Oh, and another lie about ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal is wider pedestrian sidewalks,.... as I've shown in a previous post, the pedestrian sidewalk will actually be more narrow in front of EmeraldPark as they'll have to move the in-ground tree planters at the cost of pedestrian sidewalk width
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...-rosario-varacalli.4829/page-134#post-1162938

Go through the ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal,... say the parking lane is 3.5m wide but they replace it with 2.7m wide cycle tracks,... hey, that'll give us about 0.8m for wider pedestrian sidewalks on each side, right? Wrong!,... since they'll widen the tree-line centre median from 3.2m to 4.5m. And they'll be adding more street furniture with up to 2.0m width for in-ground tree planter on the pedestrian sidewalk,... the actual width for pedestrians to walk on the pedestrian sidewalk will likely be more narrow than what we have now!
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=a331edb9b72d3510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD


I'm all for creating cycling infrastructure,.... but the cost of ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal of eliminating traffic lanes and parking lanes and narrower pedestrian walkways on Yonge Street in favour of wide cycle tracks will create traffic hell in North York Centre - not just on Yonge Street but also Doris Ave, Beecroft Road and the area local roads as cars try to find alternative routes to bypass this traffic mess. The Korean, Persian and Chinese ethnic restaurants and retailers will suffer the most - many will go out of business,.. this will result in the ethnic cleansing of the Korean, Persian and Chinese establishments on Yonge Street in North York Centre. In the long run, instead of improving the vitality of Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre,... ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal will be destroying the vitality of Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre,.... it'll be full of empty stores.

 

[Bill123]

I don't know if this has been brought up before but why do people think a bikelane is good for anything when almost half the year Toronto is covered in snow, ice or rain? Yes you just might solve the issue during mid spring to late fall but once the rain, snow and ice hits the ground the bikes go away and out come the cars.

As for what target customers Emerald Park is trying to attract, I wouldn't think of it that way. Emerald Park is not a one entity thing like any other mall. Its, I am sure you know, a condo mall with units that belong to many different owners all with their own interests. Some want to flip the unit, some want to open there themselves, some want to rent it out and some just want to use it to park cash. There is no "one direction" so to speak. The mall does have a board of directors now but so far we have heard nothing from them, we just know their names. 2/3 are retail owners so I am sure given time and how difficult their units are to lease they will do something about it.

Two big constraints the mall faces right now is the no above ground free parking issue and the mall hours issue. A mall that is not already in a very urban area will need a ton of parking space. When I say a ton I mean parking space many times the footprint of the mall. Just look at Vaughan Mills, pacific mall and Fairview. Cars act as not only transport for people but also for bags and bags of merchandise you'd rather not get if you had to walk or subway there and back. In many cases a non-urban malls business potential will be limited by the amount of parking space there is. Some of you may go "hey, yonge and sheppard is already very urban, just look its got 2 subway lines and the huge amount of people out for lunch at mel lastmans square each day! Look at all these condos!" to which I say yes, there are however this is where the mall hours issue comes in.

The mall is open from 7am-7pm. The office workers that walk around mel lastmans square arrive 9:30am to their desks and the time they do have to spend in the mall before they have to leave is limited to how lenient their boss is which usually means 10 minutes. Then they have lunch break which usually is just 30 minutes long, 10 minutes of which they can spend at the mall if they had to (they'd have to sprint here however). Then comes 5:30pm when everyone goes straight to their cars to drive home, hoping to skip the horrendous congestion both in the subway and the streets. Then say if they work elsewhere and arrive back home at Yonge and Sheppard it would most likely be earliest 6pm. I don't know about you guys but when I get off work I just want to go home drop off my bag and eat dinner then sleep, not go to a mall that locks its doors in an hour.

On the weekends and on day offs Emerald Park is much, much busier especially in the food court area simply because people actually have time to go there before it closes at 7pm.

The parking issue is impractical to do anything about. Just hope that the subway tunnel compensates for it.

Anyways if you guys are worrying about the mall, don't, because there are 70+ retail unit owners doing that already for you, 2 of which are on the board and losing a good 2 grand a month with their vacant units (which they are trying to lease out). They have lots of incentive to perform, just a matter of time.

 

[amnesiajune]

Oh, and another lie about ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal is wider pedestrian sidewalks,.... as I've shown in a previous post, the pedestrian sidewalk will actually be more narrow in front of EmeraldPark as they'll have to move the in-ground tree planters at the cost of pedestrian sidewalk width

They'll be wider north of Sheppard since a 4 meter wide car lane is being removed on each side - 50% of that goes to the cycle track/separation and 50% goes to the sidewalk.

 

[pipolchap]

Now, I'm assuming you've been to an ethnic market area of town like Chinatown at Dundas & Spadina, or ChinatownEast, or LittleIndia, KoreaTown, KoreaTownNorth, etc,.... watch the people, watch the shoppers,... how to they get there, where are the places they go shopping, how many bags do they leave with, how do they leave,.... most of them aren't locals within walking and cycling distance of these ethnic market places,.... many of them take transit or drive there,... these ethnic market place relies on customers from outside the local walking and cycling distance,.... many of the customers from these ethnic market places come from a much greater distance and thus requires transit and cars,.... these customers coming from a greater distance won't just buy one dinky thing and then go back home; they've already committed more time and money to get to that ethnic market place so in order for that trip to make sense they have to purchase more! Visit more stores and buy more items,... good luck walking all those items home or carrying them on your bike!

Yes, I've been to Chinatown. You do have a point that many use transit. Most of them carry a cart or several bags of groceries on the 510 streetcar. People do the same on the 97 Yonge from NoFrills or FoodBasics. But, I'm seeing more and more people using cargo bikes or trailers to do their shopping. Heck, the other day I went and got a 40lb bag of rice using a cart!

So here's a quick question. There are 3 H-Marts along Yonge at the corners of Olive and Greenfield and Church. The ones on Olive and Greenfield have only street parking while Church has 10 or so reserved spots. Presently, I believe that anyone that drives to an H-Mart would choose the Church one, do you agree? This logic leads me to believe most of the other 2 H-Marts are local walk-up customers! Given that they benefit from 1-2 parking spots on Yonge, will it be a catastrophe if those spots disappear? BTW, spots already disappeared in front of M2M with a temporary bus stop.

I don't think Yonge at any point can be treated as a freeway to the 401. Most people would love to avoid Yonge but the problem is the next on-ramp west of Yonge is at the Allen, which is adds 20 minutes to the drive along Sheppard, while driving east to Bayview along Sheppard is just as congested as driving south on Yonge. As of this point, Yonge street should be focused on car traffic first, and bike lanes should be sent to the ring roads on either side. It's not preferred, but a necessity due to real life.

I use the term freeway loosely, more like a route from Thornhill to 401 without making a stop in between and benefiting the community. From what I see, Yonge St is already focused on car traffic. Would you say it's working well as is?

I don't know if this has been brought up before but why do people think a bikelane is good for anything when almost half the year Toronto is covered in snow, ice or rain? Yes you just might solve the issue during mid spring to late fall but once the rain, snow and ice hits the ground the bikes go away and out come the cars.

As for rain, snow and ice, I cycle in all conditions since its my mode of transport to/from work. I gave up driving around here during weekdays and drive only on weekends. Most people are shocked to hear I cycle all year, but Toronto is not Edmonton. The snowfalls are not very frequent; trust me, I monitor this religiously! If it does snow, its salted within <24 hrs so I'm riding through slush, like a rainy day. As for clothes, I just use my ski outerwear so its comfortable. The thing about cyclist is that favour business locally, we don't want to go far. It's good for the local business community. Hope this helps you understand the reasoning or perhaps changes your mindset about bikelanes!

The parking issue is impractical to do anything about. Just hope that the subway tunnel compensates for it.

I've looked for retail units in the past for my business and depending on the type of business you own, a lot of thought goes into what type of customer you expect to serve. Parking is vital for some businesses to survive! My point to sunnyray is that if my businesses in EmeraldPark depends on people that drive and need to park, this location wouldn't be my first choice!

Another thing Bill123, I know out of any of us in the forum, you have the most at stake in this project. Just want to tell you that I value what you think!

 

[Bill123]

Two more food court units have started renovations making 11/14 of the units there filled. No word as to what food they will do yet.

Another thing Bill123, I know out of any of us in the forum, you have the most at stake in this project. Just want to tell you that I value what you think!

Thank you

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Oh, and another lie about ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal is wider pedestrian sidewalks,.... as I've shown in a previous post, the pedestrian sidewalk will actually be more narrow in front of EmeraldPark as they'll have to move the in-ground tree planters at the cost of pedestrian sidewalk width
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...-rosario-varacalli.4829/page-134#post-1162938

They'll be wider north of Sheppard since a 4 meter wide car lane is being removed on each side - 50% of that goes to the cycle track/separation and 50% goes to the sidewalk.

AmnesiaJune, prove it! It's NOT a 50/50 split. You don't provide any link or data to back-up anything you say. You're just pulling numbers out of the air.

Let's examine Yonge Street north of Sheppard under ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal,.... Please go through ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal before you comment,.... click on "consultation" tab and go through the slides:
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=a331edb9b72d3510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Your statement that parking lanes on Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre is 4.0m wide is very misleading.

City of Toronto Transportation Services standards require active parking lanes be 2.7m minimum width. But when those curb-parking lanes are also used as rush-hour-traffic lanes, they must then meet the minimum width requirement for those traffic lanes which is now 3.2m for regular active traffic lanes (in some cases allowed to design for 3.0m) and 3.3m for active traffic lanes with TTC buses. Since the curb-parking lanes on Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre host TTC buses when it's converted to act as rush-hour-traffic lane, the curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane has a minimum of 3.3m but is mainly 3.4m throughout most of Yonge Street.

The city's property right-of-way on Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre varies generally from about 32m to about 37m and at it's widest point in front of Mel Lastman Square and EmpressWalk, here the curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane is currently 3.8m (not your 4.0m). Why is it so super wide here? It likely have something to do with the former fire station that used to be on part of the EmpressWalk site; large fire trucks requires wide lanes to do their turns into and out of fire station with minimum disruption to other traffic.

Thus, on Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre, the curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane generally varies from 3.4m to 3.8m width.


Of the current 3.4m to 3.8m wide curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane, the city will install 2.7m wide cycle tracks which it would seems give pedestrian sidewalk 0.6m to 1.1m more space (a 80:20 or 70:30 split of cycle-trackedestrian-sidewalk),... that is, if it was a straight conversion of just the curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane for cycle tracks and wider pedestrian sidewalks. But the entire streetscape cross section dimensions are changing,.... so what is the real increase in "walkable" pedestrian sidewalk space??? So let's examine the cross section of Yonge Street roadway itself,....

Currently the typical cross section of Yonge Street roadway for most of NorthYorkCentre looks like this:
3.4m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
3.3m middle traffic lane
3.3m left traffic lane
3.3m Tree-lined centre median and left turn lane
3.3m left traffic lane
3.3m middle traffic lane
3.4m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
----------------------
23.3m total from curb-to-curb of roadway

Currently the typical cross section of Yonge Street roadway at widest point in front of MelLastmanSquare and EmpressWalk looks like this:
3.8m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
3.3m middle traffic lane
3.3m left traffic lane
3.3m Tree-lined centre median and left turn lane
3.3m left traffic lane
3.3m middle traffic lane
3.8m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
----------------------
24.1m total from curb-to-curb of roadway


2.7m wide cycle tracks: minimum bike lane width is 1.5m but they add 0.5m buffer on sidewalk side and add 0.7 buffer on traffic side (0.3m is minimum buffer size but they want 0.7m "to prevent against dooring" - Huh? What dooring?,.... there's no parking!


ReImagining Yonge Street Study July 25th proposal:

2.7m wide cycle track
3.3m curb bus traffic lane
3.2m left traffic lane
3.0m Tree-lined centre median and left turn lane
3.2m left traffic lane
3.3m curb bus traffic lane
2.7m wide cycle track
----------------------
21.4m total from curb-to-curb of roadway

(23.3-21.4)/2 = 0.95
(24.1-21.4)/2 = 1.35
This would have given us 0.95m to 1.35m more for wider pedestrian sidewalks and street furniture space,.... yeah, so far so good!


ReImagining Yonge Street Study current proposal,... they increased tree-line centre median and left turn lane width from 3.0m to 4.5m:

2.7m wide cycle track
3.3m curb bus traffic lane
3.2m left traffic lane
4.5m Tree-lined centre median and left turn lane
3.2m left traffic lane
3.3m curb bus traffic lane
2.7m wide cycle track
----------------------
22.9m total from curb-to-curb of roadway

(23.3-22.9)/2 = 0.2
(24.1-22.9)/2 = 0.6
This would have given us 0.2m to 0.6m more width for wider pedestrian sidewalks and street furniture space,... well, that's still something positive, right? Except,... the larger street furnitures-streetscape items will require more space! Currently the largest streetscape item are those 1.5m wide on-street cement box planters; the new streetscape design calls for 2.0m wide in-ground tree planters,... at a cost of 0.5m width of walkable pedestrian space; thus what seems like a 0.2m to 0.6m gain in pedestrian sidewalk space will actually be a 0.3m decrease to 0.1m increase in "walkable" pedestrian sidewalk throughout Yonge Street depending on the city's original roadway width there. Since those super wide 3.8m wide curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane are so rare; in most places along Yonge Street, the walkable pedestrian sidewalk space will actually decrease!


What's interesting,... is why would they increase the tree-lined centre median and left turn lane width from 3.0m to 4.5m??? Simple, so that once the geniuses at the city realize:
- cycling volume doesn't materialize (local condo folks don't cycle since they already live within walking distance of where they want to go!)
- ethnic retails stores will be closing on Yonge Street due to 40% drop in business
- what appears to be the city's ethnic cleansing policy of ethnic stores on Yonge Street will trigger local voter unrest in an area with high Korean, Persian and Chinese demographic
- urban vitallity of Yonge Street decreases
- area traffic congestion gridlock (already 2nd worst in Toronto) becomes worst in North America
- next councillor voted in with strong agenda to replace cycle track with traffic lanes!
Then they can easily replace the 2.7m wide cycle track with standard 3.3m wide parking - rush hour traffic lane by trimming the tree-lined centre median left turn space from 4.5m back down to 3.1m. Thus, the curb-to-curb distance remains consistent and the future conversion back won't affect pedestrian sidewalk space.

Future elimination of proposed cycle track to restore curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane:
3.4m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
3.3m curb bus traffic lane
3.2m left traffic lane
3.1m Tree-lined centre median and left turn lane
3.2m left traffic lane
3.3m curb bus traffic lane
3.4m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
----------------------
22.9m total from curb-to-curb of roadway

So construction of the ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal will cost about $45million,... and future conversion back with elimination of proposed 2.7m wide cycle track for 3.4m wide parking - rush hour traffic lane, narrowing on tree-lined centre median and left turn lane from 4.5m to 3.1m and repaint of Yonge traffic lanes will cost another approximately $10million. And throughout this, the walkable pedestrian sidewalk width will only increase by 0.1m at the widest city right of way on Yonge Street (namely in front of MelLastmanSquare and EmpressWalk) but decrease by about 0.3m throughout most of Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre north of Sheppard. Ahh,... our city tax money at work!


Obviously, ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal at Sheppard and south, including the Yonge Street pedestrian sidewalk in front of EmeraldPark, will put in wide cycle tracks mainly at the cost of current pedestrian sidewalk space where the walkable pedestrian sidewalk space can decrease by the full 2.7m required by cycle tracks!

But instead of jerking everyone around with cycle tracks, if the city would have just gone with the minimal roadway streetscape from the beginning,.... each pedestrian sidewalk would have 0.05m decrease to 0.35m width increase in walkable pedestrian sidewalk space throughout Yonge Street after the street furniture increase width.

What they should have proposed right from start to maximize pedestrian sidewalk space:
3.3m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
3.2m curb bus traffic lane
3.2m left traffic lane
3.0m Tree-lined centre median and left turn lane
3.2m left traffic lane
3.2m curb bus traffic lane
3.3m curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lane
----------------------
22.4m total from curb-to-curb of roadway

(22.9-22.4)/2 = 0.25

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Yes, I've been to Chinatown. You do have a point that many use transit. Most of them carry a cart or several bags of groceries on the 510 streetcar. People do the same on the 97 Yonge from NoFrills or FoodBasics. But, I'm seeing more and more people using cargo bikes or trailers to do their shopping. Heck, the other day I went and got a 40lb bag of rice using a cart!

So here's a quick question. There are 3 H-Marts along Yonge at the corners of Olive and Greenfield and Church. The ones on Olive and Greenfield have only street parking while Church has 10 or so reserved spots. Presently, I believe that anyone that drives to an H-Mart would choose the Church one, do you agree? This logic leads me to believe most of the other 2 H-Marts are local walk-up customers! Given that they benefit from 1-2 parking spots on Yonge, will it be a catastrophe if those spots disappear? BTW, spots already disappeared in front of M2M with a temporary bus stop.

Clearly H-Mart is the exception in that not all Korean retail establishment will have 3 different franchises on Yonge Street within 1.7km of NorthYorkCentre. Heck, H-Mart is clearly the TimHortons of Korean Grocery stores!

No, I wouldn't agree that a driver driving to H-Mart would automatically choose the H-Mart at Church Ave just because it has a parking lot,... if they find on-street parking near M2M at Greenfield Ave or near 24hours H-Mart at Olive Ave they might go to those ones. The three H-Marts you mentioned are all different: different opening hours (one is 24hours, the parking lot one is really 2 stores, other is M2M - morning to midnight), sightly different focus with regards to fresh fruits and vegetables VS ready made food, slightly different prices with regards to some products especially how agressively they slash end of day ready made food items, different friendliness of staff,....

Another major factor that determines which H-mart a driver would visit is what other businesses are nearby that they would want to visit as well. Do they visit the 24-Hours H-Mart at Olive in the heart of KoreaTownNorth and check out all the pretty Korean girls,... or do they visit the H-Mart on Church with parking and then hope to sneak in a Pork Bone Soup at Owl of Minerva or grab something at Metro,... or do they visit the M2M at Greenfield Ave and pick up something at SheppardCentre then drop by EmeraldPark to say "hi" to Bill123.

The H-Mart at Greenfield Ave and also at Olive Ave both benefit from more than just "1-2 parking sppts on Yonge",... there's about 10-15 on-street parking spots on each of their block of Yonge and then you add the on-street parking spots on adjacent blocks of Yonge,.... I mean, it's extremely tough to get the spot directly in front of the store you want to go to.

Take a close look at the type of cars parked on Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre,.... many of them tend to be relatively new luxury sedan, SUVs, sports car, etc,... these drivers have money to spend,... and they come to Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre to spend money. If the on-street parking disappears from Yonge Street and more local gridlock congestion, most of these people won't convert to cycling here or walking here or even taking transit here,.... they'll just drive somewhere else,... and spend their money somewhere else! And it's the local business that will suffer,... especially the local ethnic retailers and restaurants,... and the urban vitality of this area will suffer as well.

As for rain, snow and ice, I cycle in all conditions since its my mode of transport to/from work. I gave up driving around here during weekdays and drive only on weekends. Most people are shocked to hear I cycle all year, but Toronto is not Edmonton. The snowfalls are not very frequent; trust me, I monitor this religiously! If it does snow, its salted within <24 hrs so I'm riding through slush, like a rainy day. As for clothes, I just use my ski outerwear so its comfortable. The thing about cyclist is that favour business locally, we don't want to go far. It's good for the local business community. Hope this helps you understand the reasoning or perhaps changes your mindset about bikelanes!

Just wondering, where exactly do you usually cycle from and to?

I've looked for retail units in the past for my business and depending on the type of business you own, a lot of thought goes into what type of customer you expect to serve. Parking is vital for some businesses to survive! My point to sunnyray is that if my businesses in EmeraldPark depends on people that drive and need to park, this location wouldn't be my first choice!

EmeraldPark retail mall was marketed with 6 level of underground parking spaces,.... sounds like plenty parking spaces even for customers,..... but the problem is how the developer executed and designed it,.... going onto the driveway ramp from Bogert Ave is a guessing game where most drivers have issues distinguishing between were pedestrian sidewalk is VS loading dock ramps VS parking garage driveway ramp in and out,.... why? Because everything is made of plain cement! At least colour the cement different colour or use asphalt for something like loading docks and interlocking brick for something else like parking driveway,... differentiate! And once you're inside the underground parking lot, you start spinning around in loops to find a parking spot,... two-way bi-directional loops where there could be another car going the opposite way on a relatively narrow path with blind corners! A lot of EmeraldPark residents, guests, customers, etc,... just say forget it and park in the surface parking lot at Menkes 4800 Yonge site directly north of EmeraldPark.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

The thing about cyclist is that favour business locally, we don't want to go far. It's good for the local business community. Hope this helps you understand the reasoning or perhaps changes your mindset about bikelanes!

So you're saying "the local business community should support cycle tracks on Yonge Street at the cost of curb-parking/rush-hour-traffic lanes because local cyclist naturally favour business locally!"

Do you know what's wrong with that statement? The number of local cyclist is extremely low. This 2014 report on Ward23 Willowdale cycling data came up with a number but it was so low it didn't even report the number,.... instead it quoted a more favourable number from another report,... from 2006 "Transportation Mode Shares – Transportation Tomorrow Survey data shows that 58% of work trips in Ward 23 are by automobile and 36% are by transit. Non-work trips show 74% by automobile and 19% by transit. Bicycle mode share in Ward 23 has been calculated at 0.3-0.4%."
https://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Tor...E North York Centre Final Report May 2014.pdf

Currently, Ward23 Willowdale (basically Bathurst to Bayview from 401 to Steeles minus the chunk northeast of Yonge & Finch) has a population of over 100,000 residents. Of which, 0.3-0.4% are commuter cyclists,... that's 300 to 400 people out of 100,000! And they're generally not from the condos in the NorthYorkCentreSecondaryPlan area along Yonge, they're mainly from the single residential houses in the neighbourhood further from Yonge and they mainly cycle east-west to their subway station on Yonge Street. Do you really think, these 300-400 local cyclists will be enough to support the local businesses on Yonge Street when their on-street parking lane and rush-hour-traffic lanes are eliminated,.....

Let me answer that question for you,..... from the above 2014 report: "There are wide ranges in cycling mode share across City of Toronto wards (from 7.5% to less than 1%). The city-wide average for bicycle mode share has been calculated at 1.3%." And obviously, it's the downtown wards that are near 7.5% cycling mode share. And within, those downtown wards there are some areas that are much lower (usually condo) and other much higher (usually houses),.... and the areas near Bloor between Bathurst to Christie to Ossington has some of the highest downtown cycle mode share like 10%, 11.9% 13.70%,... one even at 17.1% (just west of UofT),... these cyclists are the ones using the new Bloor Street bike lanes,... right through KoreaTown,... yet, it's interesting how with all these local cyclist cycling right by their local businesses,.... all these ethnic Korean businesses still see business drop by 40%
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-concerned-about-bloor-bike-lanes-impact.html

Hmmm,.... I wonder what they will mean about the ethnic businesses along Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre including EmeraldPark when the on-street parking and rush-hour-traffic lanes are eliminated for cycle tracks.


Anyways,.... Here's a fun interactive google map from Toronto Star,.... based on Statistics Canada's census data,.. click on census tract area and see percentage of commuter using car, transit, walk cycle mode share,.... Warning: Don't go through data for Ward23 Willowdale, its too depressing!
http://www3.thestar.com/static/googlemaps/100105_bikes.html

 

[pipolchap]

businesses still see business drop by 40%

Just read the article and, as a cyclist and driver, its pretty easy to understand what's going on. You're right, it's probably about parking, for BOTH cars and bikes. It hit me when I read the Basecamp Climbing gym guy said, “I can tell you that a very large portion of our members are cyclists, and they all bring their bikes into the gym,” he said. “So we do have a lot of happy climbers.” I think he's one of the few business that have secure bike parking. The city guy also mentioned problems with the GreenP lot.

Check this out:
http://dandyhorsemagazine.com/blog/2016/08/15/mo-bike-lane-mo-bike-parking-problems/

I know this bit of logic goes against your agenda for street parking and you'll probably ignore it, but bike theft is still an issue in Toronto. I will visit a business with secure bike parking!

 

[pipolchap]

Just read this over at another thread in this forum. Could this be the problem?

Still digging to find a recent update on how the unclogging of King and Queen is coming along. Nothing showing since well over a year ago, but this did:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/09/13/bike-parking-falling-far-short-of-demand.html

It's pretty astonishing the degree to which bike parking is over capacity around the Ossington-College-Dundas-Queen W-Trinity Bellwoods area. Typically have to walk at least a block in either direction of your destination to find an unused bike ring on a weekend day.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I know this bit of logic goes against your agenda for street parking and you'll probably ignore it, but bike theft is still an issue in Toronto. I will visit a business with secure bike parking!

PipolChap,..... my "agenda" isn't for street parking,.... my "agenda" is and always has been to get the proper infrastructure that'll benefit all the people my community of NorthYorkCentre the most. The current ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal is basically being shoved down our throat by city staff and consultants that are mainly not from this area with their own "agenda" for MinimumGrid and appeasing Jennifer Keesmaat,... at any cost including making one of the worst traffic gridlock congestion area significantly worst and their ethnic cleansing of the Yonge Street retail space in NorthYorkCentre.

PipolChap, I've been advocating for a variety of infrastructure improvements including cycling infrastructure from the local councillors, mayor, MPP, MP, city staff, TTC, local retailers, provincial staff, developers-land owners, local ratepayer groups, etc,... for years. And I'm pretty sure you don't bother, I know all the local advocates! And best of all, I get things done,... People like you just complain when it's against your own personal best interest,... regardless of what's best for the community as a whole.

In June 2015, I notified HullmarkCentre thread of the progress of some of my cycling advocacy:
- "BTW, Tridel HullmarkCentre should be installing some outdoor bike racks near the TTC subway entrances, WholeFoodMarket and the public square soon,... " Why? Because I advocated for them!
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...l-kirkor-architects.668/page-103#post-1011946
- "Tridel and especially Hullmark has an image of being bike-friendly, but you have no idea how difficult it was just to get HullmarkCentre to add bike racks on street level in front of WholeFoodsMarket and TTC subway entrances. WholeFoodsMarket (by far HullmarkCentre`s largest retail tenant) tends to attract an environmentally friendly consumer base who are more likely to bike. It took WholeFoodsMarket, community groups and city staff over 7 months of constant campaigning to get Tridel-HullmarkCentre to agree to put bike racks at street level! It`s a easy straight forward request, but Tridel HullmarkCentre simply didn`t want to do it! As per Section 37, Tridel-HullmarkCentre put in 132 public bike parking spaces (more than their required 70) with washroom and 3 shower-change rooms - problem is they hid them all in their P1 underground parking level and thus, nobody knows they even exist, so they don`t get used and Tridel-HullmarkCentre was hesitant to add any bike racks on street level when so much of their exsting bike infrastructure go unused and will likely continue to be unused."
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...l-kirkor-architects.668/page-103#post-1012037
- "I`ve already discussed signage for the BikeStation with CityPlanning and HullmarkCentre,.... it`s useless. Tridel-Hullmark Centre doesn`t have a problem putting up signage along Yonge Street (both fixed on poles, in windows and temporary signage on sidewalk) advertising the public underground car parking and entrance at the rear since they charge $20 per day parking (used to be $25 per day). But they refuse to put up any signage advertising the free bike parking spaces in the underground parking level since there`s no revenue to be generated from free bike parking!"
"Net result, the cyclist just rode an extra 250m big circle to get to the bike parking spaces in P1 level, but by walking 50m west in P1 level, this cyclist will be in TTC subway entrance 2 flights of stairs down from street level. So why not just have TTC put in bike ramps (similar to those at VictoriaPark TTC subway station) on these two flights of stairs so cyclist won`t have to travel that extra 250m loop! This will allow cyclists to use the Tridel HullmarkCentre south TTC entrance to get to the P1 parking level of HullmarkCentre where the free bike parking spaces are! Sounds simple,... Since its TTC entrance on Tridel HullmarkCentre property, I requested TTC to ask Tridel HullmarkCentre to install bike ramps at HullmarkCentre cost (as per TTC direct entrance cost - Tridel HullmarkCentre is responsible for all cost associated with both it's south and north entrances, thus bike ramps would have been paid for by Tridel HullmarkCentre at no cost to TTC); after a month TTC refuse request for bike ramps because Sheppard-Yonge south entrance at Poyntz is automatic collector booth and thus they don`t want bikes there,... but bikes won`t be going through the automatic collector booth! Arghhh,..."
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...l-kirkor-architects.668/page-103#post-1012292

And here's PipolChap thanking me,...
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...l-kirkor-architects.668/page-103#post-1012436

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Check this out:
http://dandyhorsemagazine.com/blog/2016/08/15/mo-bike-lane-mo-bike-parking-problems/

I know this bit of logic goes against your agenda for street parking and you'll probably ignore it, but bike theft is still an issue in Toronto. I will visit a business with secure bike parking!

PipolChap, if you're trying to imply that the reason business on Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre will suffer is due to the lack of bike parking spaces,.... you really are fishing.

PipolChap, have you ever had problem finding suitable bike parking space along Yonge Street in NorthYorkCentre??? If so, contact the retailer and have them contact the city at 311 to request a bike lock ring post installed in front or nearby the store - it's that simple!

PipolChap, name one area in NorthYorkCentre where its typically impossible to find bike parking spot and you have to walk at least a block away to find it.


As I recently mentioned with data, Ward23 Willowdale has over 100,000 residents of which there are about 300-400 local regular cyclist,....
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...-rosario-varacalli.4829/page-135#post-1164113

And for these 300-400 local regular cyclist of Ward23, how many bike parking spaces are there,... at the corner of Yonge & Sheppard alone,... Tridel HullmarkCentre has bike station (shower and washroom facilities) with 132 public bike parking spaces & another 69 for residents, SheppardCentre will have over 403 bicycle parking spaces, 4800 Yonge is proposing 578 bicycles parking spaces,...

As per agreement with the city, Tridel HullmarkCentre is to provide 139 bike parking spaces with washroom and change/shower facilities - 69 for residents and office and 70 for public usage Tridel HullmarkCentre actually, went above and beyond by providing 132 public bike parking spaces for free, instead of the negotiated 70!
See page 10 of CityPlanning Final Report for Tridel HullmarkCentre: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2010/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-27581.pdf
Here are images of the public bike parking spaces at Tridel HullmarkCentre,.....
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...el-kirkor-architects.668/page-100#post-957150
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...el-kirkor-architects.668/page-100#post-956795
Yes,.... those 132 public bike parking spaces at Tridel HullmarkCentre are always that empty!!!!

Bazis EmeraldPark will only have the bare minimum for it's size: 57 bike parking spaces for residents & office + 6 public bike parking spaces (still waiting for!)
See page 18 of CityPlanning Final Report for Bazis EmeraldPark: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.729.7085&rep=rep1&type=pdf

SheppardCentre (under mall renovation now) will have 403 bicycle parking spaces, currently 37 of which are required to be at-grade. I'm still advocating to get more of the new storage area in former moat right along Yonge and along Sheppard converted to bicycle parking spaces.
See page 7 of CityPlanning Final Report for RioCan SheppardCentre: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-75642.pdf

Menkes proposed 4800 Yonge Street development is to have 578 bicycles parking spaces,....
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/12/menkes-proposes-49-storey-tower-yonge-and-sheppard


Regardless of how multicultural Toronto is,... the majority of cyclists in Toronto are white males!
"Why are so few Black people cycling in Toronto?" "The areas of the city with the most cyclists tend also to be the whitest"
https://nowtoronto.com/news/why-are-so-few-black-people-cycling-in-toronto/
"Where are all the female cyclists?"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/where-are-all-the-women-cyclists/article25369940/

Bottomline: White male cyclist are not the typical demographic that visit the Korean, Persian and Chinese ethnic restaurants and retailers along Yonge Street currently. The cycle tracks will cater primarily for these white male cyclist and will be displacing on-street parking and rush-hour-traffic lanes used by Korean, Persian and Chinese customers visiting these local Korean, Persian and Chinese ethnic restaurants and retailers along Yonge Street,.... so how will these ethnic business survive?

 

[mkerian]

Look, it's great that discussion is going back and forth on this topic, but it sounds like this is more on the Re-Imagining Yonge Study than it is on Emerald Park at this point. If there is no thread about it, perhaps one should be created?

And can we please stop using the term 'ethnic cleansing'?! I'm a minority myself, I live in Yonge and Sheppard, and I'm glad to see so many different businesses. But that term is NOT relevant to this conversation.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Look, it's great that discussion is going back and forth on this topic, but it sounds like this is more on the Re-Imagining Yonge Study than it is on Emerald Park at this point. If there is no thread about it, perhaps one should be created?

And can we please stop using the term 'ethnic cleansing'?! I'm a minority myself, I live in Yonge and Sheppard, and I'm glad to see so many different businesses. But that term is NOT relevant to this conversation.

MKerian, Good point and I admit that term might be a bit too strong.

ReImagining Yonge Street Study is a relevant discussion here on EmeraldPark thread because EmeraldPark would be most affected of all the developments in NorthYorkCentre:
- most EmeraldPark mall retailers are just starting and are thus the most vulnerable mall retailers in the area
- 70% of EmeraldPark condo residents are renters and most likely to leave

While EmeraldPark doesn't have any on-street parking on Yonge Street to lose, ReImagining Yonge Street Study proposal will redirect traffic to Beecroft Rd and Doris Ave; thus, the current on-street parking on Beecroft Road will likely disappear as well. Which would negatively impact EmeraldPark retailers, especially EmeraldPark food court restaurants which are along Beecroft Road.

EmeraldPark Mall isn't like most of the other area established mall retail space,... it's a condo-mall where only 25-33% of first floor retail space is now occupied and a number of them are new businesses still trying to establish themselves and a loyal customer base. New businesses are most vulnerable in their first few year. The stores are predominantly ethnic; thus, their success or failure will reflect upon those ethnicities to the rest of the community. When NorthYorkCityCentre lower retail concourse area failed nobody took notice,.... but now it's that Chinese WorldOnYonge retail mall failing.

Anyways, if the elimination of on-street parking and removal of traffic lanes on Yonge Street causes a number of the existing local Korean, Persian and Chinese retailers and restaurants on Yonge Street to do poorly and disappear,.... what would happen to EmeraldPark? Since you live in the area you likely noticed that of Ward23 demographic,.... there's a much higher concentration of visible minorities in the high-density developments of the NorthYorkCentreSecondary VS the single residential house areas east of Doris and west of Beecroft,... and it's especially obvious when you watch who goes in and out of the residential condos of EmeraldPark. At Bazis EmeraldPark and Tridel HullmarkCentre 70% of the residential condo units are rental units VS 35% average for the rest of the high-density condo towers in NorthYorkCentreSecondaryPlan area,.... these renters have little skin in the game and if they feel the area is no longer convenient for them (like in terms of the type of retail and restaurants they frequent) they'll be the first to go,... followed by the condo owners,.... EmeraldPark condo just opened about 1.5 year ago, so it's not like most residents have set up roots in the area. Flood of units on the market make it more difficult for any new development in the area,... even more so since new development here is almost always targeted towards Korean, Persian and Chinese communities.

But it's not just the high density area of NorthYorkCentreSecondaryPlan area that suffers,... but also the single residential house areas,.... for the last few decades, as the NorthYorkCentreSecondaryPlan area developed high density condos, it brought in a lot more visible minorities into what was predominately a post-war empty nester area full of what former PrimeMinister Harper called "old-stock Canadians" (there's a reason why he's a former PrimeMinister). And over time as these visible minorities increase their wealth and were ready to move up, many like the area so they just move out of the residential condo units into the nearby single residential houses,.... this segment and foreign buyers are the main factors now pushing up the prices of the single residential houses in this area.


Mkerian, I too am a visible minority living in the Yonge&Sheppard area,... but unlike you, I'm never afraid to rock the boat! Why? If you don't let your voice be heard,... they'll just keep doing the same thing over and over,....

Here's another recent example,.... Look at the retailers demographic in the former SheppardCentre Mall - the mall was in such terrible condition with the previous owner that often only relatively newly arrived visible minorities would open up shop there; once RioCan and KingsettCapital brought it and started their renovation,... they jack up their new rent! They don't care about these small retailers operated by visible minorities, they only want to attract the big brand name stores,.... So when SheppardCentre renovation started, some of these former store owners just retired or still looking to relocate (Chinese key-battery store, Korean lottery store),... a couple stores moved to EmeraldPark (namely Korean PearlCleaners and Persian FancyDryCleaners) where their foot-traffic volume is a small fraction of what it was at SheppardCentre. Once the new SheppardCentre Mall reopens, check out the type of new stores they'll have,.... there won't be any small retailers operated by visible minorities because they were "pushed out" by RioCan's greed.

 

[amnesiajune]

And over time as these visible minorities increase their wealth and were ready to move up, many like the area so they just move out of the residential condo units into the nearby single residential houses

I doubt that's as common as you're suggesting. The single residential houses in the area are ridiculously expensive - they're literally just worth the value of the land underneath them. The most expensive apartments are Emerald Park are in the 650,000 - 700,000 range, while the least expensive post-WW2 bungalows in the area are $1.5 million.