Toronto East Harbour | 214.2m | 65s | Cadillac Fairview | Adamson

ProjectEnd said:
Perhaps someone better versed in London's transit history can help but I think that one thing which is giving First Gulf some trouble with pre-leasing here is the degree of uncertainty in the transit planning. Sure we've got plans for a number of different lines utilizing different technologies but Toronto is notorious for planning and, in the case of Eglinton, even starting construction before a change in government priorities causes everything to grind to a halt.

Was the Jubilee Line extension under construction in the early 90s when CW debuted to catastrophic failure? CW Underground station opened in 1999 but was the broader line in planning or under construction 10 years before that?
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My thoughts exactly. The construction of the Jubilee Line extension was rife with problems, and the CW station opened I think more than a decade after construction of the first office towers began (One Canada Square was completed in 1991) and, as noted, it took some time for the district to really take off. There was talk of a Jubilee extension as far back as the '70s, in fact, and different plans were the source of fevered debate (it's not just Toronto!). The extension that exists today was finally approved sometime in the early '90s and then construction began in '93.

CW itself still occupies a bit of a strange place in the hearts and minds of Londoners for a whole bunch of reasons (most of the connotations aren't positive for a pretty diverse array of reasons).

That station was one of my favourite in the city when I lived there.
 
interchange42 said:
And Canary Wharf doesn't exist?

42
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shakeshead ... Oh, 42

We have a skyscraper CBD with room to grow for more and taller skyscrapers. Canary Wharf IS London's modern, skyscraper CBD and all Canadians paid up for its initial bankruptcy. What's next? You'll bring up La Defense?
 
Whoever mentioned Vancouver ...really? Vancouver does not compare to Toronto when it come to office space or business headquarters etc. I'm from Vancouver...for all that is said above Vancouver it is still a sleepy hollow in comparison.
 
maestro said:
shakeshead ... Oh, 42

We have a skyscraper CBD with room to grow for more and taller skyscrapers. Canary Wharf IS London's modern, skyscraper CBD and all Canadians paid up for its initial bankruptcy. What's next? You'll bring up La Defense?
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Where in Toronto's CBD are you putting up almost a million square metres of office space in close succession?
 
Also, tidbits from the new cover letter:

UPDATED OWNERSHIP First Gulf has acquired additional lands within the City’s Unilever Precinct Study area. These include various strips of land along the rail corridor (municipally addressed as 375 Eastern Avenue and 385 Eastern Avenue) under Don Valley Eastern IV Limited as well as 415 Eastern Avenue under Don Valley Eastern Limited. All of these lands were included within the limits of Official Plan Amendment but were not contained within the limits of either the Zoning By-law Amendment or Draft Plan of Subdivision.

As per this resubmission, First Gulf is including the lands along the rail corridor (375 and 385 Eastern Avenue) within the Zoning By-law Amendment limits. As noted below, once the master plan is closer to finalization we will incorporate these lands within the implementing by-law document and Draft Plan of Subdivision.

We note that 415 Eastern Avenue is not proposed to be rezoned nor incorporated into the Draft Plan of Subdivision.

And, separately (and somewhat amusingly):

The original development application fee was based on an upper-limit GFA of 829,833 sq m. As noted above, the revised master plan will have an upper-limit gross floor area of 925,314 sq m. As such, we have been advised that a supplementary development application fee payment of $647,772.40 for the fee for the additional 95,481.29 sq m will be required. Our client does not consider this additional fee to be warranted as it is not reflective of the incremental costs the City will incur to process the application for the additional GFA. Therefore, the increased fee will be paid under protest and appealed to the OMB.

Also under the "still to be resolved" section, ugh:

The proposed right-of-way widths and cross sections for Broadview Avenue and East Harbour Boulevard shown in the December 2016 master plan are unchanged in the current master plan. While we agree with the City’s intention to provide Complete Streets in the Precinct, these streets still need to be functional from a traffic perspective. Further discussions need to occur accordingly.
 
Nothing like a payment in protest of 650k.. really shows you the sort of money being thrown around here. the application fees alone here are over 6,000,000. Wonder how many staff the city has hired to handle this application? my guess is far less than what $6 million would get you..
 
Without a doubt these fees are subsiding the City's review of smaller projects. I'm not surprised at the payment under protest - the projects being effectively subsidised belong to competing developers.
 
ADRM said:
Where in Toronto's CBD are you putting up almost a million square metres of office space in close succession?
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Where is the demand for a 11 million square feet in close succession? Where are all these large tenants to anchor million square foot towers outside of the CBD.

The shock from RBC moving west of University is still reverberating and that's just a couple blocks away. The Concourse Building was demo'd in large part for an Adelaide address over a Richmond address. This is a ballsy move by First Gulf. I hope it works out for them. Something tells me Amazon was a motivating factor and there will be more revision once that comes to pass.
 
rents out here are going to be significantly lower than in the core - the land cost here is essentially nothing. Developers are tearing down significant office buildings downtown to replace them with bigger ones. Here you have an empty parking lot that Great Gulf picked up for a dime.

This will be attracting more so tech and creative companies rather than the traditional finance tenants. Think more Queen Richmond Centre than Richmond Adelaide Centre.
 
That's pretty much what I have been saying all along. Dropping square footage for smaller buildings that attract a wider range of tenants.
 
Unfortunately, Toronto isn't anywhere near that point that this site requires 50 storey towers

It's a simple concept. Large tenants anchor large buildings. Small tenants anchor small buildings. A collection of small tenants occupying a large tower isn't in First Gulf's best interest. Tech and creative are decidedly small tenants. There's a few international firms but, it's highly unlikely they will consolidate back in the core. (or around it)
 
maestro said:
Where is the demand for a 11 million square feet in close succession? Where are all these large tenants to anchor million square foot towers outside of the CBD.

The shock from RBC moving west of University is still reverberating and that's just a couple blocks away. The Concourse Building was demo'd in large part for an Adelaide address over a Richmond address. This is a ballsy move by First Gulf. I hope it works out for them. Something tells me Amazon was a motivating factor and there will be more revision once that comes to pass.
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What shock ? Where is it being felt exactly ? A big chunk of the space RBC gave up has already been leased back; Office vacancy rates in the rates in the core have dropped (and by core I mean the financial district proper) where they raised a few years ago due to all the moves to the south core. Of course everyone knows overall vacancy rates in Toronto downtown/midtown are amongst the lowest in North America.

The south core project was envisioned ages before Amazon made any announcement, so were many if not all the recent plans; And honestly, I don't think Toronto will be Amazon's choice (nor anywhere in Canada), of course if it does it would be amazing news. But again ignoring all the "best city" articles (where yes Toronto is showing up) which really aren't based on anything, I doubt it.


With that said I completely agree demand for 11 million square feet will take years to backfill and also agree small and mid size technology / media companies, something Toronto *is* indeed attracting a lot of don't really desire large chunks of space. Shopify taking just about all of 150K in the 180~K allied project is a good example, and that's probably big. Amazon already has 150/200K+ and is growing (ignoring this HQ talk). I expect you'll see this trend continue; But even these international companies won't be looking for a huge amount of space.

I think East Harbour would be better envisioned as the new Liberity Village (the west side, with all the office space), that model is likely to work better. Maybe with a few larger projects (like King East Center 500K building which is all but full).
 
The RBC move must be now ten years ago. What does today's vacancy rate have to do with anything? The shock was simply that they took a lease west of University. Vacancy rate has relatively little to do with trying to lure a large, and most, importantly, stable Bay Street type tenant to anchor a East Harbour skyscraper.

I know Amazon's public announcement came long after East Harbour was proposed. I don't assume they didn't look beforehand. Toronto certainly put together their bid in record time. They were a bid city within hours of Amazon's release. I don't expect Amazon to give Toronto a serious consideration. You do need something flashy like West Harbour to even have a chance.
 
This is discussion better suited for the Amazon thread, but I would adopt a wait and see strategy rather than pessimist one in regards to the Toronto bid.

Looking at the Amazon expenditures in their RFP, the biggest chunk bar none comes from labour costs. The labour in Toronto region is very high quality, very very cheap compared to American neighbours, and they have the exchange rate to grant them even greater purchasing power on top of that.

It makes Toronto very appealing option on that alone (never mind the fact that our city is basically tailor-made for their RFP on the other fronts). So it is Amazon's move really. Maybe they intend to move departments from Seattle to HQ2 rather than drawing from local talent, and the Canadian border is prohibitive of that.
 
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