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W. K. Lis
Superstar
This has nothing to do with the Eglinton LRT construction, but expect some to say it is the fault of that. It does have to do with the water pipes, that were built by the Township of York in 1916, were to be replaced soon. Looks like they'll have to replace all the pipes in the area sooner than later. Can't delay this expense any longer.
See link from CTV news.
See link from The Star.
See link from CTV news.
See link from The Star.
WislaHD
Superstar
I decided today to look at the Metro Toronto/TTC's Summary Report from 1985 for the Eglinton West subway at my university library today. It had some interesting conclusions.
- First of, ridership. Projected at 7,100 peak hour direction heading westbound to Spadina at opening-day in 1991, and 9,300 by 2011 (if expanded to Mississauga City Centre). We always hear that these reports overinflated the subway numbers for Eglinton and Sheppard because the plan at the time desired and wanted to justify subways. However, from reading this report it is quite clear that Metro Toronto quite clearly did not favor the Eglinton Subway as it ran contrary to their "Central Plan" at the time. The Central Plan was to spread employment out to the suburbs and they found that the Eglinton Subway would center employment in Central Toronto. As such, Toronto, Scarborough, North York, East York and Etobicoke were all against the Eglinton Subway while only York favored it.
Further, they predicted very low redevelopment potential for the Eglinton corridor. Which is obviously not what has happened the past 30 years, and is contrary to our present Avenues plan. So what does this all mean for our Crosstown? Obviously ridership projections back then used outdated and outmoded projection formula, but it fuels my suspicion that we will exceed opening day projections.
- An example of those outmoded projection formula is the reasoning for building an Eglinton subway west of Spadina as opposed to east of Spadina. They believed that it would relieve the Bloor-Danforth line, which they projected to be over-capacity west of Spadina by year 2000. Their reasoning being that Eglinton would absorb N-S bus routes. The bus routes in that part of town don't really work that way so I don't know why they thought it would provide Bloor-Danforth with relief. Additionally, they projected that an Eglinton subway (and Sheppard/Finch) would have negligible impact on the Yonge-University-Spadina line, haha right...
- Thirdly, and I believe this is commonly known, the Richview corridor was expected to be used as an at-grade subway corridor for Eglinton West expansion. They certainly believed it was wide enough back then to a subway, so why not an LRT?
If Harris did not bury it, I actually don't think that the Eglinton subway would have been that bad. It would have been inexpensively and easily expandable to the airport using the at-grade Richview corridor, and we would likely have built it out to Don Mills in the east under the Lastman or Miller eras. Obviously a subway would have made expansion to Scarborough prohibitively expensive, however that just justifies building the SLRT and the Scarborough-Malvern LRT all much more. (Interline both of them at Eglinton-Kennedy, send them both to Don Mills)
But, I think the Crosstown is marvelous nonetheless.
- First of, ridership. Projected at 7,100 peak hour direction heading westbound to Spadina at opening-day in 1991, and 9,300 by 2011 (if expanded to Mississauga City Centre). We always hear that these reports overinflated the subway numbers for Eglinton and Sheppard because the plan at the time desired and wanted to justify subways. However, from reading this report it is quite clear that Metro Toronto quite clearly did not favor the Eglinton Subway as it ran contrary to their "Central Plan" at the time. The Central Plan was to spread employment out to the suburbs and they found that the Eglinton Subway would center employment in Central Toronto. As such, Toronto, Scarborough, North York, East York and Etobicoke were all against the Eglinton Subway while only York favored it.
Further, they predicted very low redevelopment potential for the Eglinton corridor. Which is obviously not what has happened the past 30 years, and is contrary to our present Avenues plan. So what does this all mean for our Crosstown? Obviously ridership projections back then used outdated and outmoded projection formula, but it fuels my suspicion that we will exceed opening day projections.
- An example of those outmoded projection formula is the reasoning for building an Eglinton subway west of Spadina as opposed to east of Spadina. They believed that it would relieve the Bloor-Danforth line, which they projected to be over-capacity west of Spadina by year 2000. Their reasoning being that Eglinton would absorb N-S bus routes. The bus routes in that part of town don't really work that way so I don't know why they thought it would provide Bloor-Danforth with relief. Additionally, they projected that an Eglinton subway (and Sheppard/Finch) would have negligible impact on the Yonge-University-Spadina line, haha right...
- Thirdly, and I believe this is commonly known, the Richview corridor was expected to be used as an at-grade subway corridor for Eglinton West expansion. They certainly believed it was wide enough back then to a subway, so why not an LRT?
If Harris did not bury it, I actually don't think that the Eglinton subway would have been that bad. It would have been inexpensively and easily expandable to the airport using the at-grade Richview corridor, and we would likely have built it out to Don Mills in the east under the Lastman or Miller eras. Obviously a subway would have made expansion to Scarborough prohibitively expensive, however that just justifies building the SLRT and the Scarborough-Malvern LRT all much more. (Interline both of them at Eglinton-Kennedy, send them both to Don Mills)
But, I think the Crosstown is marvelous nonetheless.
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Amare
Senior Member
Agreed, its just a shame dumb and dumber came into power when they did and sold off the Richview lands. Something special could have been done there, and the two previous administrations (Lastman, Miller) along with Metro Toronto were smart enough to realize that. Unfortunately the previous mayor was too busy with his drugs to realize that one.But, I think the Crosstown is marvelous nonetheless.
44 North
Senior Member
Very interesting! I've been meaning to head over to a reference library read up on docs for old transit plans in TO, but still haven't gotten around to it. You wouldn't happen to recall what it said Eglinton West's bus ridership was like at the time of the subway proposal? Reason I ask is I want to gauge what kind of ridership it took for Metro to propose upgrading a corridor to subway - and how that compares with the present. IIRC with Sheppard, Lastman said it was the busiest bus route (but I don't know if that's correct).
WislaHD
Superstar
I can't remember reading the exact bus figures (it's probably there, didn't read it all), but in the report conclusion they said that upgrading and maintaining the present bus routes on Eglinton was enough to handle demand until year 2000 in liue of a subway. That was the solution Toronto, North York, East York and Scarborough advocated for.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
the original plan was for BRT on Eglinton, but it got upgraded to a subway. Other than york, the metro continued to push for the BRT.
Development planning was also very different back in the 1980's, focused in urban growth centres like NYCC with huge office buildings and condos instead of the smaller scale midrise style they are trying for today.
Development planning was also very different back in the 1980's, focused in urban growth centres like NYCC with huge office buildings and condos instead of the smaller scale midrise style they are trying for today.
ehlow
Senior Member
Video with new (I think) 3d video renderings:
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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I still wish this was going to the airport. We need a local connection that does not $ 17 a ride
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Ugh. I am really not liking those ugly green vehicles.
Hamiltonian
Active Member
Isn't it going to be the typical red and white TTC look?
howl
Active Member
The Crosstown will be owned by Metrolinx not the TTC, although it will be fully integrated and staffed by TTC people. Metrolinx wants people to be aware that it is their product paid for by the Province.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
We don't know. There have been conflicting answers.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I think we would be better served with the Crosstown LRT extended to the airport, as originally planned. SmartTrack shouldn't go along Eglinton West.
44 North
Senior Member
That video was pretty cool. A bit bland, but interesting enough. This is a pretty major project, and one of the costliest transit projects in the world. I think it might be worth it to jazz it up a bit. One thing I particularly liked was that they showed an animation of the elevated section. I don't think we've seen any renderings so far of that, and ditto for the mothballed SLRT plans. Too bad something similar couldn't have been built on the east side between Brentcliffe and Don Mills to keep that section grade-separated as well.
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