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Toronto/Chicago comparisons

Yup. that sums it up pretty nicely. exactly my rant in a sentence.... The definition/idea of Downtown Core is become washed away in the sand... i'd rather have an amazing downtown core, than have it spread all over the place with a just average downtown,

Yep, curious how others feel. Maybe is this a naive interpretation of this situation ?

One can argue it's not like the core isn't seeing development, it's seeing tons of development, and tons is really not an exaggeration when it comes to residential / new public space (referring to the waterfront mainly here regarding the later), maybe not so much on the commercial front.

So will that offset things ? i.e. there will be less external visitors (i.e. from the inner GTA) but much more direct residents downtown ?

Vancouver has booming suburbs in Burnaby / Surrey ? Does that hurt it's core today, maybe.
 
Yep, curious how others feel.

One can argue it's not like the core isn't seeing development, it's seeing tons of development,

true, however, if you add up all the (highrise) development going on in the suburbs (and outside the downtown core, ex. Yonge/Egg), it would probably equal if not surpass the amount of development in the downtown core. The problem is that the suburbs have their own mini-skylines, which takes away the wow factor of a downtown,
 
true, however, if you add up all the (highrise) development going on in the suburbs (and outside the downtown core, ex. Yonge/Egg), it would probably equal if not surpass the amount of development in the downtown core. The problem is that the suburbs have their own mini-skylines, which takes away the wow factor of a downtown,

Actually even if you do that I still bet there are more downtown, even if you include downtown markham and the like ... particularly if you throw in a couple of hypothetical for the east bayfront lands that will probably be starting this year. Actually, I'm fairly postive about this ...

But still I agree and see your point. But *skylines* mean nothing, MCC has always had a skyline and frankly that has really only started taking away from the core (or you can argue it is potentially taking away) in recent years due to development that has nothing to do with condos (i.e. great parks / public space).

So a bunch of towers in Markham will due little ... but with the great planing going on it's not just a bunch of condos, it's a mini-downtown, or at least that's the idea (with all the retail / parks / transit connections planned) that's what I fear will take away from downtown even if downtown is building up it's own areas!

See a ton of residential has always exists outside the core of every city in the outer suburbs, and they're called houses :D They do little as if anyone wants a big city feel they still need to go downtown, if they don't, they wouldn't be coming anyway so they don't factor in. I don't think these small cores will compete with downtown, not even close, not ever, but, they may compel some people to stay away from downtown more often to frequent their smaller core.

I think that's probably what you meant ... you were just more concise :)
 
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It's a natural progression of things taal. Your prediction is totally on the mark. Given the glacial pace of infrastructure improvements in the GTA, the building of mini downtowns in the suburban cities will help reduce the demand for downtown travel. I think the result will be a multi-centric region with many downtowns but still having Toronto be The main city centre with the biggest cluster of entertainment, shopping, residents, offices and tourists. :)
 
true, however, if you add up all the (highrise) development going on in the suburbs (and outside the downtown core, ex. Yonge/Egg), it would probably equal if not surpass the amount of development in the downtown core. The problem is that the suburbs have their own mini-skylines, which takes away the wow factor of a downtown,

I'll give you a different POV on this issue :) (all information referenced is from wikipedia):

Chicago's population (2010): 2,695,598 (city) / 9,461,105 (metro) = 71.5% of Chicago's population lives in the suburbs.
Toronto's Population (2006): 2,503,281 (city) / 5,113,149 (metro) = 51% of Toronto's population lives in the suburbs.

Now that we can all agree that Toronto has a much larger proportion of its population living within the city, does it matter whether the suburban population lives in houses or highrises? In fact, high rise development tends to be centred around transportation hubs that make downtown access a priority, and therefore much more likely. Therefore, I would argue that the high rise development in Toronto's suburbs is a large advantage over Chicago's endless low density suburban development.

Another point that I would like to make:

Chicago's land area: 606.1 (city) / 28,163.5 (metro)
Toronto's land area: 630 (city) / 7,125 (metro)
*all in km^2

In my opinion, this proves that the downtown core is much more accessible to the metropolitan population in Toronto than it is in Chicago.

Edit: I'll develop this further by adding one more point to prove the effectiveness of higher density suburbs:

Chicago's mass transit system consists of: 144 stations / 360.7 kms / 203 000 000 annual ridership
Toronto's mass transit system consists of: 69 stations / 70 kms / 304 000 000 annual ridership

I'll put this in more comprehendible terms:

Chicago: 1 400 000 passengers/station/year
Toronto: 4 400 000 passengers/station/year
* This is a clear advantage of a much denser city: more passengers, even with a clearly inferior system.

Conclusion: Toronto's has the following advantages over Chicago (in terms of making our downtown livelier and more accessible):
1) Higher proportion of the population living in the city vs. the suburbs (Toronto: 49%, Chicago: 28.5%)
2) Higher density suburbs = much shorter distances from downtown (Metro size; Toronto: 7 125 km^2, Chicago: 28 163.5 km^2)
3) Higher access to mass transit (Annual subway ridership; Toronto: 4.4 million passengers/station/year, Chicago: 1.4 million passengers/station/year)
 
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It's a natural progression of things taal. Your prediction is totally on the mark. Given the glacial pace of infrastructure improvements in the GTA, the building of mini downtowns in the suburban cities will help reduce the demand for downtown travel. I think the result will be a multi-centric region with many downtowns but still having Toronto be The main city centre with the biggest cluster of entertainment, shopping, residents, offices and tourists. :)

Right but would more subdued outer nodes imply an ever greater / larger downtown core ? :)

In which case again, I'd almost prefer that.

I think the problem or situation arises from the location of employment in the GTA, the mere fact that there is tons and tons of commercial employment (i.e. not industrial) outside the downtown core (more so then in the core it self!) implies it's not reasonable for everyone to live in the core or even commute to it if they're clearly working elsewhere. So that implies these sub-nodes do need to exist to create more urban context in the GTA as said people will never be cooming downtown anyway.

I wonder what Chicago's suburbs are like in terms of employment ? Vancouver is like us I beleive but maybe they're simply restrained by land availalb,e either way, there's tons of employment outside the core in that city as well and they have very built of burbs.
 
I'll give you a different POV on this issue :) (all information referenced is from wikipedia):

Chicago's population (2010): 2,695,598 (city) / 9,461,105 (metro) = 71.5% of Chicago's population lives in the suburbs.
Toronto's Population (2006): 2,503,281 (city) / 5,113,149 (metro) = 51% of Toronto's population lives in the suburbs.

...

Chicago's land area: 606.1 (city) / 28,163.5 (metro)
Toronto's land area: 630 (city) / 7,125 (metro)
*all in km^2
Isn't part of the smaller metro population because you are only looking at a smaller land area. What's Chicago's population in the first 7,125 km²? What is Toronto's population by the time you get to 28,163.5 km²?

Also looking at Wikipedia, if you go for a larger definition of Toronto you have the Golden Horseshoe and the Greater Golden Horseshoe. These give you:
Golden Horseshoe - Population (2006) - 6,488,062 - Area 10,097 km²
Greater Golden Horseshoe - Population (2006) - 8,102,163 - Area 31,562 km² (i.e. 69% live in the burbs)

Suddenly suburban Chicago doesn't look much bigger in population when you start looking at similar areas. Especially given how much growth we've had from 2006 to 2010.
 
what are the "bad" neighbourhoods in chicago?

Well i haven't spent much time in Chicago but i wouldn't walk west of La Salle. If you consider how the city is laid out compared to Toronto, it's like saying i wouldn't walk north of Bloor.

I've noticed there's a few ex-Montrealers in Toronto.
Torontovibe, i know exactly what you mean from this comment "I lived in Montreal for 10 years and whenever I told someone I was from Toronto, they'd say "well, no wonder you moved here"".
I got a lot of snotty remarks but those same people have regretted their comments after spending some time with me here.

I'll use the Science Center as an example. In most cities you would not have it located so far away from downtown. Chicago would not dare giving such a cultural and tourist attraction to the inner suburbs.
 
That is strange. When I was Montreal, I got a lot of compliments about being from Toronto. In fact, it was the only Canadian city I've been to where people actually seemed more positive about Toronto. I got a lot of hate when I was in Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton but got lots of love in Montreal. I guess it's all luck though on who you happen to talk to.
 
Isn't part of the smaller metro population because you are only looking at a smaller land area. What's Chicago's population in the first 7,125 km²? What is Toronto's population by the time you get to 28,163.5 km²?

Also looking at Wikipedia, if you go for a larger definition of Toronto you have the Golden Horseshoe and the Greater Golden Horseshoe. These give you:
Golden Horseshoe - Population (2006) - 6,488,062 - Area 10,097 km²
Greater Golden Horseshoe - Population (2006) - 8,102,163 - Area 31,562 km² (i.e. 69% live in the burbs)

Suddenly suburban Chicago doesn't look much bigger in population when you start looking at similar areas. Especially given how much growth we've had from 2006 to 2010.

The populations of Chicago and Toronto are indeed extremely close if you look at a similar area. However, a "metropoplitan" area is one that is focused on a main city, or at least a strong connection between 2 or more cities. Part of the "greater horseshoe" includes kitchener/waterloo, which is an entirely separate metropolitan area on its own, and not really related to Toronto. This is a direct result of the added density (ie. looking at the same area reveals similar populations, but in Chicago, that is 1 linear, low density spread of metro, whereas in Toronto, There are high density clusters along with the low density, which means that in that same area, there is more than one metropolitan area that does not rely on Toronto). Can you really say that St. Catherines, Kitchener, Hamilton all rely on Toronto as much as areas that are a similar distance from Chicago's downtown rely on Chicago? I doubt it.

Also, I was going to add in specific statistics to your point, but I decided against it for simplicity, but here you go:

Chicago's urban population (2010): 8,711,000 / 5,498 km^2 / Density: 1584 people/km^2 urban
Toronto's urban population (2006): 4,753,120 / 1,749 km^2 / Density: 2718 people/km^2 urban

Toronto's urban population is nearly twice as dense as Chicago's, and increasing quickly. Remember that Toronto is the fastest growing city in the G8 countries, I would love to see this figure again in a few years.
 
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The populations of Chicago and Toronto are indeed extremely close if you look at a similar area...
I'm curious what area one uses in Chicago to get 28,163.5 km ... does it stretch into Indiana? Most of what Illinois is probably just Chicago sprawl - but in Indiana you quickly get into Gary, which is more comparable to Hamilton and Kitchener than Mississauga.

Oh hang on - the Chicago number is this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area#Combined_statistical_area - the Combined Statistical Area. Wow, not only does it include parts of Indiana - it includes part of Wisconsin - and reaches to the border of Michigan! Surely Michigan City and Kankakee are more than comparable to St. Catharines and Kitchener! Wow - it even includes La Porte ... having visted La Porte, I wonder if the Chicago area here is more inclusive than the Greater Golden Horseshoe!

And while we stress the differences ... the closer you look at the numbers and geography - the more similar the cities seem in area and population. Off hand I can't think of a more comparable city on the planet.
 
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I'm curious what area one uses in Chicago to get 28,163.5 km ... does it stretch into Indiana? Most of what Illinois is probably just Chicago sprawl - but in Indiana you quickly get into Gary, which is more comparable to Hamilton and Kitchener than Mississauga.

Oh hang on - the Chicago number is this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area#Combined_statistical_area - the Combined Statistical Area. Wow, not only does it include parts of Indiana - it includes part of Wisconsin - and reaches to the border of Michigan! Surely Michigan City and Kankakee are more than comparable to St. Catharines and Kitchener! Wow - it even includes La Porte ... having visted La Porte, I wonder if the Chicago area here is more inclusive than the Greater Golden Horseshoe!

And while we stress the differences ... the closer you look at the numbers and geography - the more similar the cities seem in area and population. Off hand I can't think of a more comparable city on the planet.

i honestly couldnt agree with you more, give or take...........i always think of metropolitan toronto as Golden horseshoe (8.1 million), wonder what the population is now? somewhere around 8.5 million?
 
i always think of metropolitan toronto as Golden horseshoe (8.1 million), wonder what the population is now? somewhere around 8.5 million?
According to Statistics Canada's estimates, Ontario's population has grown from 12.1 million in the 2006 census to 13.3 million on April 1, 2011; a rate of 9.5%. If the Greater Golden Horseshoe has grown at the same rate, it would be 8.9 million today.

One could make a case that the population of the Greater Golden Horseshoe has grown faster than the remainder of the population ... if all of Ontario's growth was here, it would be 9.3 million.

I'd split the difference, and say the Greater Golden Horseshoe is now about 9.1 million ... about 26.5% of the population of Canada - and bigger than every other province.
 
I'll use the Science Center as an example. In most cities you would not have it located so far away from downtown. Chicago would not dare giving such a cultural and tourist attraction to the inner suburbs.

Though to be fair, Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry is itself pretty far from downtown...
 
As a "tourist", I love Chicago for its architecture. Yes I mainly stuck to the tourist areas when i visited but why would i go anywhere else? if i was a tourist visiting toronto, i wouldn't go visit Jane and Finch or Vaughan Mills Mall. Oh wait, strike that last one out, Vaughan Mills is actually considered a tourist destination.

Anyway, here are some props by the Chicago Tribune on Luminato (I apologize in advance if this article has been posted elsewhere on this forum)

July 02, 2011
What Chicago can learn from Toronto and its Luminato arts festival
Chris Jones
Chicago Tribune

TORONTO — Luminato, the festival of arts, culture and ideas that just concluded in Canada's largest city, has only been held for four years. But this citywide extravaganza already attracts a collective audience in excess of 1 million and spends millions of dollars on the commissioning of expansive international creations like Tim Supple's “1001 Nights,” a show that used 24 actors from across the Middle East and that was supposed to then come to the Chicago Shakespeare Theater before visa issues killed, or at least postponed, the booking.

But for all the lofty artistic aims spoken at Luminato, which claims to be the largest multi-arts festival in North America, one message here rings the loudest and the clearest: This festival was created to promote its home city and build its cultural prestige around the globe. Or, as the manifesto of the co-founders puts it: “to shine Toronto's light on the world and the world's light on Toronto.” You can't say it much clearer than that.

Surely, there are several lessons here for Chicago, a city that desperately wants to improve its international reputation and currently minimal share of foreign tourists. According to figures from the U.S. Department of Commerce, Chicago's share of international visitors to the U.S. actually shrank between 2009 and 2010: from 4.7percent to 4.5 percent, a share already below that of much smaller cities like Boston. In 2010, Toronto attracted roughly 2 1/2 times as many international visitors as Chicago.

Aside from the speedier processing of visas for international artists in Canada, there's another way you know you are no longer in the United States: Luminato makes only about 10 percent of its $13 million annual budget at the box office. In fact, most of its biggest events, like this year's outdoor k.d. lang concert, are free. More than half of its funding comes from the various levels of government: city, provincial and federal, with Ontario carrying the lion's share. Remarkably, the province has given Luminato a separate $15 million grant, to be used specifically for the funding of new works. It has commissioned, or co-commissioned, more than 40 in five years, coming up with premieres from the likes of Philip Glass, Robert Wilson, Leonard Cohen, Atom Egoyan and Robert Lepage.

Janice Price, the executive director, claims Luminato pays off handsomely, and in multiples, for all its stakeholders. Citing figures calculated using government formulas, Price says last year's Luminato spawned more than $132 million in visitor expenditures, with most visitors saying Luminato was the main reason they were in Toronto. And those are Canadian dollars that, thanks mostly to the way Canadian banks avoided excessive exposure to toxic mortgage-backed securities, are currently worth slightly more than U.S. greenbacks. And then there is the matter of a changed perception.

“We needed to improve our brand on the world stage,” said Price, in an interview in her office. “People still thought of Toronto as a bunch of white guys wearing parkas. But 50 percent of the population of Toronto was not born here.”

Luminato was born from a big idea forged by two businessmen: David Pecaut and his friend Tony Gagliano. (Pecaut, a Toronto-loving American and a partner at the Boston Consulting Group, died of cancer in 2009.) Right from the start, the pair, regarded around town as masters of influence in corporate and governmental circles, had little time for incremental growth. In big cities like Toronto or Chicago, they argued in their early proposals, no one pays attention to small events. It was, in Chicago-style language, a case of making no small plans and raising no small amount of money.

At the start of their planning, Toronto was more than ready for a stimulus of the cultural sort. The city was reeling from the 2003 SARS viral infection crisis that crippled its international tourism. In the years that have followed, passport requirements and the decline in the U.S. dollar contributed to a massive falloff in visitors from the United States. In an interview, John Karastamatis, a spokesman for the powerful Mirvish organization, which presents Broadway and West End shows in Toronto, said the U.S.-based audience for big shows in Toronto has dropped precipitously from as high as 50 percent during the summers of the early 1990s to, currently, less than 2 percent. The Mirvishes, who control many of the downtown venues here, have thus had to reinvent their entertainment operations as a domestic Canadian entity. (According to research commissioned by Broadway in Chicago, Chicago has received some of the benefits of cultural tourists from, say, Michigan, who would, in the 1990s, have been much more likely to go to Toronto.)

But Luminato has set its sights on the international market, where Chicago's draw was and is weak.

Pecaut and Gagliano decided that Luminato had to be composed of two main elements: prestigious, large-scale international works that would attract far-flung visitors and global media attention and that would allow Toronto to both partner and compete with such existing festivals as the ones in Edinburgh, Scotland; Sydney; and Avignon, France (all of which enjoy ample public support).

And then there had to be something different for the locals, something more at the street level to generate ownership and excitement. In general, that has meant free pop and rock concerts and generous commissions to local arts groups to create new work that would become part of the festival and make it appealing, for example, to the trendy young urbanites who live in Toronto's many downtown lofts. As a result, studies show that significantly more than half the attendees at Luminato are younger than 34. And cultural professions are happy. “We give our local artists the chance to dream a bit,” said Chris Lorway, Luminato's artistic director, in an interview during this year's festival.

Pecaut and Gagliano further determined that Luminato must focus on what they called “unique events,” thus refusing to cobble together a festival from ordinary existing programming (collectively marketing previously scheduled events is a common way to attempt a festival on the cheap).

Over the years, “unique events” has translated into the premiere of an opera by singer Rufus Wainright or an oratorio by Monty Python's Eric Idle. Unlike most U.S. festivals, which tend to be highly segmented, Luminato has promoted a judicious and highly eclectic mix of pop culture and the so-called high arts. It also has found a prominent place for books and ideas. This year's festival had magic and fashion events. A partnership with The New Yorker magazine this year produced a variety of programming, including talks on current events and phenomena by the likes of Malcolm Gladwell, David Remnick and the Chicago-based writer Ted Fishman, who, spotted on the plane from Chicago to Toronto, said he was going to Canada to get the chance to talk about China.

Commissioning is a key to the Luminato formula. In the case of “1001 Nights,” for example, Supple was struggling to get funding for the research-and-development portion of his project — which involved finding actors from throughout the Middle East who could collaborate on a kind of reclaiming of “1001 Nights,” creating an Arab version of an Arab story.

“I was really struck that no one was doing work from that region,” Lorway said. “I thought the R & D was the most interesting piece of what Tim was doing.”

So Lorway and Price came up with more than $1 million in funding, and Luminato had the premiere — and a royalty interest — in a show that Edinburgh will present this summer.

Much of what Luminato does in Toronto already exists in pieces in Chicago: International theater programming comes to the Chicago Shakespeare Theater (which, in the newly announced plans for Navy Pier, is likely to get an additional large venue) and the Goodman Theatre; the Chicago Humanities Festival offers programming based on ideas; the Tribune-owned Lit Fest features authors and their books; Just for Laughs, a Canadian import, focuses on comedy. But none of these has the power alone to fill a huge city's hotel rooms or draw international media.

It would be wrong to characterize Luminato as wholly secure or universally supported. In a recent article, The Globe and Mail questioned whether the festival could sustain its level of support in the face of governmental change and a new emphasis, at all levels of government, on austerity. And internal change is also in the works: Lorway, the man who commissioned Supple's “1001 Nights,” an earthy, sexual and exceedingly long show that did not attract capacity houses nor retain all of those who did show up, is leaving his post this summer. Still, even though some of its commissions struggle, Luminato explodes all over Toronto for 10 days in June.

The closest Chicago has come to Luminato was perhaps the International Theater Festival, which existed from 1986 to 1994 (festivals were only held every two years) and the eventual demise of which is often held up as evidence of the difficulty of creating international cultural festivals in a city with so many arts nonprofits competing for resources.

But Jane Nicholl Sahlins, who ran that festival, argues that the time is now right to explore the idea again. “When we started, people internationally would say, ‘Chicago? Where's Chicago?'” Sahlins said. “Now they would not say that. And at that time, we were not a priority within the city. And the city has to be behind this kind of thing.”

Of course, it takes money to run a festival like Luminato, as Sahlins well knows. You have to find the right time of year. You have to create work as well as just present it. There has to be buy-in from turf-aware local institutions, with which Sahlins says she often found herself competing for scarce funding.

But while there is international work at Luminato, it is not an international festival but a celebration of an international city. A city whose hotel rooms it fills for a good chunk of June. That, perhaps, is a crucial distinction. Luminato doesn't just bring in work from outside; it also creates work from within and then shouts about it globally. Furthermore, as Price noted, festivals are a different beast. They help people follow the arts. “You can't just hit them with a wall of stuff,” she said. “You have to provide context.”

Intriguingly, Price argued that free events are actually far more attractive to corporate sponsors like L'Oreal, one of Luminato's biggest supporters.

“If you are in a big, beautiful park getting an artist the caliber of k.d. lang for free,” Price said, “you appreciate the sponsor. And you don't mind if you see a couple of banners.”

Perhaps in Chicago, you do not entirely have to start from scratch.

“I have often wondered why somebody doesn't combine something with the Humanities Festival,” Sahlins said. Through a spokesman, those who run the Humanities Festival said they would be “fine with that.”

Perchance in such a marriage, or a similar union, lies Chicago's Luminato.

Maybe. It takes an upfront investment and a big communal buy-in. And if you follow the Luminato model, you don't ever try to build anything up slowly.

_________________________________________________________


Why not add another piece from the LA Times and turn this thread into LA vs. Toronto (it's been done before!). Again, I apologize if this article has been posted already but I want to emphasize Toronto has no culture or culture-loving citizens (eyes-rolling).....


Dispatch from Canada: Toronto Symphony Orchestra strikes gold with the kids
June 30, 2011 | 12:45 pm
LA Times Culture Blog

The 2010-11 season has been a tough one for classical music across the continent. In most cities, a sticking of heads in the sand in regard to how technology has changed our relationship with live performance and an insistence that the music itself was enough to fill the hall has left orchestral music standing in the corner wondering why people aren’t noticing how awesome it is anymore.

Add in shifting cultural priorities, major hits to endowments, bitter labor disputes and poor management, and many orchestras are naturally feeling more and more anxious about their future.

As dismal as the outlook may seem, some orchestras are doing it right. The Toronto Symphony Orchestra faced near bankruptcy in 1995 and 2001, a major labor dispute in 1999, half-full halls, crippling debt, and a CEO and conductor who jumped ship, yet it has come out the other side in great shape. This month, the orchestra reported that 35% of its audience is younger than 35 years old.

In 2001 the choice was make massive changes or fold. Choosing the former, and, frankly, with nothing left to lose, the TSO actively reached out to new audiences by fitting programming into their schedule instead of demanding the reverse. A new after-work concert series catered to commuters and a shorter Saturday night series was followed each time by a party in the lobby where musicians and the audience could mingle, drink and listen to local bands. The TSO’s biggest success, however, has been the “tsoundcheck” program (the “t” is silent), which offers $14 tickets to those from 18 to 35.

Offering cheap tickets to students is nothing new, but extending the privilege to young professionals and designing social events with them in mind is, even nine years later, still not the norm. Last year, 23,000 tickets were sold through tsoundcheck — four times more than the first year the program was offered.

The musicians have noticed.

“There’s been a complete shift in the nine years I’ve been playing with the symphony”, said horn player Gabriel Radford. “For us on stage, that has a tremendous impact. Things seem to come alive. At the end of a show, when you’ve put in all that work, it’s great.”

How has the TSO managed it? The secret seems to be that from the beginning the tsoundcheck program has been fully integrated into the organization rather than just a pet project. The administrators, marketers, musicians and music director Peter Oundjian, himself a risky pick when he was appointed in 2003, all work toward make coming to the symphony as easy and enjoyable as possible. Tsoundcheckers are treated the same as full-price subscribers, meaning they aren’t relegated to the nosebleeds or restricted to buying tickets hours before the concert.

As a result of their hard work, going to the symphony has become a normal thing to do for under 35s in Toronto, and has even become a popular date-night activity. Trina Senechal Klinck, 32, began attending the TSO when she started dating her husband, Ben, in 2006.

“It’s the same prices as the movies and it’s more of an outing and it’s cultural. I’m always up for trying new things and the symphony offers things that are compelling to go to — you don’t feel like it’s from the bottom of the barrel. We’ve introduced a lot of our friends to [the TSO].”

At the moment, the Los Angeles Philharmonic doesn’t have a dedicated young professional program but it does market its Friday Casual Concerts (which also offers a shorter, intermissionless program with a chance to meet the musicians after) and chamber music series to that age group. In 2010-11, the average orchestral patron age at Disney Hall was 64, with 11% of tickets going to people 35 and younger. The average age of a TSO patron is 49. The Chicago Symphony, which also has an average patron age of 49, recently reported that people 35 and younger bought 19% of its tickets last season.

When TSO Chief Executive Andrew Shaw was asked recently by the Toronto Star what he thought orchestra concerts would look like in five year’s time, he replied, “More social engagement, shorter programs and more emphasis on challenging and big works that take our intellectual and emotional capacities to a new level.”

More emphasis on intellectually and emotionally challenging works? Doesn’t the younger set want laser light shows and film scores? As it turns out, they don’t.

“If you listen to current bands like Radiohead, Fleet Foxes and Joanna Newsom,” said longtime tsoundchecker Dustin Cohen, 26, “you will see that … young people today continue to crave big-picture themes like love, loss, death and revolution. There’s a unique quality to live classical music. When I’m in the concert hall, watching the orchestra, I’m thinking: ‘I’m going to download this second movement when I get home!’”
 
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