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Toronto Bike Share
- Thread starter kettal
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DSC
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I meant turning parking spaces on streets over to them but ZI am more interested in knowing who is backing this financially. It will not be cheap and not make money for several years, if ever.
Tulse
Senior Member
muller877
Senior Member
Versus taxpayers directly subsidizing the other player (which takes up honking huge amounts of real estate with their outdated parking stands)?
I've used this type of bike share in China. So easy to use compared to our current bike program. As so handy. They are outside almost every subway station and apartment building. My friends use them for the 2 minute bike ride to the subway (vs a 5 minute walk). By making it easy to hop on and hop off (vs the terminal we have to use in Toronto) the bikes can be used for short rides to save a couple of minutes. (also depending on the pricing structure)
Shenzhen has hit 500,000 bikes with 7 competitors (in the main city area which has 10M people)
The economics....you can choose a bike that is built for $100 or up to $400 which includes the smart lock, gps, etc. Depends on the quality you want. In China they rent for anywhere from $0.20/hr to $1/hr (again...depending on the one you choose...do you want a cheap bike or a fancy one.
WislaHD
Superstar
Here is an interesting article about how China has become flooded with for-profit (and public sector) bike sharing companies.
Uber for bikes: how 'dockless' cycles flooded China – and are heading overseas
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/22/bike-wars-dockless-china-millions-bicycles-hangzhou
Thousands of confiscated share bikes. Mobike alone has flooded China’s cities with more than a million of its orange and silver bikes in less than a year. Photograph: VCG via Getty Images
It is interesting to seeing a taste of that come to Toronto.
Uber for bikes: how 'dockless' cycles flooded China – and are heading overseas
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/22/bike-wars-dockless-china-millions-bicycles-hangzhou
Thousands of confiscated share bikes. Mobike alone has flooded China’s cities with more than a million of its orange and silver bikes in less than a year. Photograph: VCG via Getty Images
It is interesting to seeing a taste of that come to Toronto.
muller877
Senior Member
Bring it on! We always talk about the last mile problem with transit. This is a solution. With the low cost bike solution and allowing for a dynamic number of bikes at any given location it really reduces the operating costs. But only if you have a critical mass of bikes (5,000+ for Toronto)
But I'm a bit worried about this company. I don't think it'll be around a long time based on the following:
1. They are using the same name as a European cycling magazine so it cannot be trademarked. Maybe with the .ca but a good branding person would not want to be forced to include the .ca for every campaign.
2. They are looking for a general manager. As a start up the founders should be running the company from Day 1 until it is past the growing pains. Maybe if these guys are tech focused and they have no clue about business but then why are they also hiring an Android Developer?
4. Where's the marketing? It's Victoria Day and that's really when Toronto wakes up from our winter slumber and we go outside. They should have launched by now. You don't want to launch late in the season.
From the various rounds of funding for other bike sharing companies it appears as if it costs around $1000 per bike to start up a company like this ($400 for the bike + first year operating loss + marketing + app development). Toronto probably needs 4,000 bikes before it is built out (bixi has 2000-ish but the non-station model requires more bikes). So $4M total cost.
If they plan to start small and grow I would be worried. Let's see if they throw 100 bikes on the road day 1 or 1000. that's going to be my litmus test to see if they will be here in the long term.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
I wouldn't be so skeptical. Uber was around in Toronto for two and a half years before anyone outside of the startup-obsessed tech crowd knew about it. Every new company that's vaguely branded as "tech" (many of which shouldn't be, but that's beside the point) will survive if it can become profitable before its fountains of money run out. This is one of them. There's no way that they can survive at $1/hour - Sobi in Hamilton needs to charge $4/hour to break even on operating costs, with the city covering all its capital - but if they can bring on a lot of customers and keep them after jacking up the price, they could become sustainable.
There's definitely an audience for this. Right now TO Bike Share only offers their $7.00 day pass and monthly/annual passes. The day pass is fine if you're going to be using it several times a day (I've gotten that a few times when I needed to drop off my car to get fixed in the odd parts of downtown), but if I need to make a single one-way trip I'd probably only use something that charges per-minute or per-hour.
There's definitely an audience for this. Right now TO Bike Share only offers their $7.00 day pass and monthly/annual passes. The day pass is fine if you're going to be using it several times a day (I've gotten that a few times when I needed to drop off my car to get fixed in the odd parts of downtown), but if I need to make a single one-way trip I'd probably only use something that charges per-minute or per-hour.
WislaHD
Superstar
I agree with the bring it on sentiment!
Competition is good for consumers. It means supply will be expanded to reach more of the market share, and prices will be forced to be competitive. As we approach critical mass, it would necessitate improved cycling infrastructure across the city. (Ideally, leading to a self-perpetuating cycle of increased cycling mode share.)
I would be upset if the city decided to regulate this, or somehow think it should have a monopoly on bike sharing.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
Not if it creates a race to the bottom that eventually drives everyone out of the market. That's why the city enforces a monopoly on public transit - the service already requires hundreds of millions in subsidies, and competition on the handful of profitable routes just increases the money sink.
But again, I doubt this sort of service is going to be a "real" competitor to Bike Share TO - it's not really a viable option for tourists, or for people who are constantly biking around downtown.
muller877
Senior Member
Sobi may not be the operator in Hamilton for much longer. No transparancy. Why is the fee so high? Are the operators earning a salary that is exorbitant? It was silly of the city to not have any oversight of the operating expenses nor regulate the hourly fee of the bikes that the City owns.
Their website says they will expand the program with the profit. Have they done this? How much have they reinvested?
http://globalnews.ca/news/3353765/s...ter-refusing-to-provide-financial-statements/
At least it's not the 407 where you are stuck with these operators and the high rates for 99 years.
Why bike sharing works in China is that the fee is so low. For $1 I will hop on a bike and ride it for 10 minutes without thinking. For $4 i'd want to get my money's worth and only use it for longer trips.
The problem is that when the public service/NPO's run these systems the costs are too high. Denver has a cost of $1.50 per rider (of which $1.25 is salaries)...the only city that I can find that publishes their financials. Plus the upfront capital cost. The key to managing these costs are:
- non-unionized temporary workforce (30% savings right here)
- balancing the number of bikes (capital cost) with the number of employees that are needed to move the bikes around the city (operating cost)
- repairs (getting a good quality easy to maintain bike is key)
- low cost new bikes
Student99
Active Member
Yeah, why not. They should pay a fee to contribute for cycling infrastructure since they're taking up more than their fair share.
No one likes it if I spread my bags on multiple seats on a crowded bus, making it so that other people who want a seat are unable to sit down.
Besides, don't car-share companies pay to keep their cars parked in public places?
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Student99
Active Member
GREAT idea!
mdrejhon
Senior Member
We already have dockless bikes in Hamilton -- it was one of the world's biggest GPS-tracked dockless fleet until China rapidly jumped on this bandwagon frentically! (Granted, the Chinese dockless bikes use a simpler system that relies more on a scout honor -- no electronic U-bar like SoBi).Here is an interesting article about how China has become flooded with for-profit (and public sector) bike sharing companies.
Uber for bikes: how 'dockless' cycles flooded China – and are heading overseas
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/22/bike-wars-dockless-china-millions-bicycles-hangzhou
Thousands of confiscated share bikes. Mobike alone has flooded China’s cities with more than a million of its orange and silver bikes in less than a year. Photograph: VCG via Getty Images
It is interesting to seeing a taste of that come to Toronto.
For Hamilton's system, you get a discount when you lock at an official dock than offdock.
That helps keep clutter down while sometimes populating dock-poor parts of the city with extra bikes for easier pickup convenience.
But....holey moley. 100,000 SoBi equivalents landing in one city in less than one year?! And now 500,000 among seven competitors? Thats stunningly nutty of an explosion.
Less than three years ago, the biggest GPS tracked smartbike fleet was just 750.....in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
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DSC
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It may already have been noted here but the $15 discount for Live Green card holders has now ceased.
Northern Light
Superstar
I spoke w/Bikeshare staff, asking about this year's fleet expansion.
They wouldn't give me any details, but 'stay tuned'.
*rolls eyes*
Cycling season is here, now, but the expansion whose funding arrived last fall, has not.
They wouldn't give me any details, but 'stay tuned'.
*rolls eyes*
Cycling season is here, now, but the expansion whose funding arrived last fall, has not.