Toronto Bay Adelaide Centre | 217.92m | 51s | Brookfield | KPMB

[taal]

Southcore Tower 2 is not only amongst 'the most likely', it is announced and under construction already.

42

This one always struck me as odd ... we know this for sure ? You're absolutely correct that it was announced, but maybe they're just digging out the entire site now ? I say it's odd because they supposedy started without any tenants signed ... can't say for sure if anyone is signed now or not either.
For a condo this is rare (i.e. without sales) but it has happened a couple times ... for an office building !

 

[TonyV]

So I just wrote in another post that Bay-Adelaide West is a bloody bore.

With the office market heating up, maybe the developers will go in for the kill! How about 85 storeys for Bay-Adelaide East? Same skin as BA West, but for heaven's sake change the proportions, and go for a graduated, stepped approach on the east side (the side facing Yonge Street). Please, not just another block; let's make the architects do some work even if it's copycat work.

For heaven's sake let's start having some fun around here. Skyscrapers are supposed to be a pissing contest! Just wishful thinking on my part, I am sure.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Taal, in another thread I speculated that office development may have some correlations with residential property prices. I would love if some real data would back that up. However, a quick glance at the recent published figures showed that the greatest residential re-sale appreciations at present are occuring:

-416 Downtown central city
-416 North York city centre and west along sheppard
-905 Markham, Richmond Hill North towards Newmarket
-905 Mississauga west along the 401 corridor, Milton Halton Hills

The worst preforming areas are:

-416 Far east Scarborough
-416 Ford Land in North Etobicoke
-905 Exurban districts north of highway 9
-905 East end of GTA Oshawa, whitby, Scugog etc.

Tech industries are considered prized industries in some circles. In terms of medium turn sustainability I question this assertion. Tech industries can be a crazy boost for the short-term economy but they are highly unstable and fickle. I would never invest in commercial real estate tied to high tech industries, it would be a nightmare unless it was within an urban context were there is a wide array of economic sectors at play. A visit to the Bay Area a year-and-a-half ago would tend to back me up on this. Even with Bay Area tech companies dominating the globe, I probably didn't see a single crane and the area is littered with empty office buildings.

 

[Traynor]

So I just wrote in another post that Bay-Adelaide West is a bloody bore.

With the office market heating up, maybe the developers will go in for the kill! How about 85 storeys for Bay-Adelaide East? Same skin as BA West, but for heaven's sake change the proportions, and go for a graduated, stepped approach on the east side. Not just another block.

For heaven's sake let's start having some fun around here. Skyscrapers are supposed to be a pissing contest! Just wishful thinking on my part, I am sure.

I totally agree with your vision of BAE but unfortunately Nathan Phillips Square and the damn shadowing laws will negate the height possibility at this location. It's a perfect location for a Supertall, but that is moot thanks to NPS. Though I do hope we end up with something other than a 45 floor version of BAW.

I like International Modernism, though too much of a good thing is always bad. It dilutes the special nature of anything if it's all the same. "If everyone is special, no one is special." as the saying goes.

Furthermore, while everyone seems to agree the quality of the BAW cladding is top notch, I personally don't care for pure mirrored facades on tall skyscrapers unless they have a unique tint like Royal Bank Plaza. So I would not want BAE to have the exact same cladding but instead, something that coordinates, just not an identical match.

A lot of people love the way buildings like BAW and the new One World Trade Tower in New York, mirror their surroundings and to quote one architecture critic "The facade creates a river of the sky reaching down to the ground." I personally find liking this phenomenon baffling. Why do you want your great architecture to disappear? Why do you want your surroundings to be prominent but not the building your are constructing? Why do you want your skyscraper to look like the sky? That's what we have the ACTUAL sky for. I want my building to stand out from its surroundings. I want my skyscraper to appear as a construction fitting in with its surroundings not disappearing into it like the Predator monster in the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie of the same name.

I want my good architecture to stand out on the skyline, not become part of the sky or background buildings. You can still use glass, but you have to mix in other materials or have an undulating, convoluted or multiple setbacks OR choose a strong colour to for the glass differentiate it from the sky.

I just hope we get a good design here.

 

[taal]

Taal, in another thread I speculated that office development may have some correlations with residential property prices. I would love if some real data would back that up. However, a quick glance at the recent published figures showed that the greatest residential re-sale appreciations at present are occuring:

-416 Downtown central city
-416 North York city centre and west along sheppard
-905 Markham, Richmond Hill North towards Newmarket
-905 Mississauga west along the 401 corridor, Milton Halton Hills

The worst preforming areas are:

-416 Far east Scarborough
-416 Ford Land in North Etobicoke
-905 Exurban districts north of highway 9
-905 East end of GTA Oshawa, whitby, Scugog etc.

Tech industries are considered prized industries in some circles. In terms of medium turn sustainability I question this assertion. Tech industries can be a crazy boost for the short-term economy but they are highly unstable and fickle. I would never invest in commercial real estate tied to high tech industries, it would be a nightmare unless it was within an urban context were there is a wide array of economic sectors at play. A visit to the Bay Area a year-and-a-half ago would tend to back me up on this. Even with Bay Area tech companies dominating the globe, I probably didn't see a single crane and the area is littered with empty office buildings.

Interesting proposition, but I doubt such a correlation exists there's little in the way reasoning that would explain it ?

NYCC has seen little to no development and same goes with Richmond Hill North towards Newmarket (other then industrial which is a completely different ball game).

I'm sure all the usual suspects are at play ... the specific industry in a center / cost of land / transportation / rent rates.


I have a lot to say regarding your technology company outlook

First, a big issue here is whether we're referring to the millions of smaller startups associated with the tech industry that you really don't see elsewhere or the big players. It's interesting to note that downtown (mainly the west end) is home to a good majority of the small tech companies in the GTA ... I'll be specific - mobile application development - Toronto has actually become a little hub for this (and Toronto being mainly the west end of the downtown). But your right that these are the sort of industries that go boom and bust ... were in a boom right now.

But for the larger players, these are relatively stable; They may suffer more or less then your typical financial but I doubt that's true at all; They probably suffer at different times. Most large tech players are in Markham and the airport corporate center (west). Toronto has done little in the way to attract them. This may not be all negative as generally speeking what they've looked for (at least in the past) is large campus style developments which really don't work well downtown.

You also have to differentiate tech companies from the back end tech support all other companies require. For the later (which banks and the financial industry rely on heavily) it would be great for these to stay downtown but a lot have moved out to other areas in the GTA. Anyway, my argument here is Toronto should make a play on these. To me the best area for them is the waterfront along side corus.

 

[TonyV]

I totally agree with your vision of BAE but unfortunately Nathan Phillips Square and the damn shadowing laws will negate the height possibility at this location. It's a perfect location for a Supertall, but that is moot thanks to NPS. Though I do hope we end up with something other than a 45 floor version of BAW.

...

Yup, I know, I know. It's just that in my life, rules were meant to be broken. It's how I've lived.

 

[Automation Gallery]

So I just wrote in another post that Bay-Adelaide West is a bloody bore.

With the office market heating up, maybe the developers will go in for the kill! How about 85 storeys for Bay-Adelaide East? Same skin as BA West, but for heaven's sake change the proportions, and go for a graduated, stepped approach on the east side (the side facing Yonge Street). Please, not just another block; let's make the architects do some work even it it's copycat work.

For heaven's sake let's start having some fun around here. Skyscrapers are supposed to be a pissing contest! Just wishful thinking on my part, I am sure.

Right-on, how about Brookfield properties BCE Place phase-3 which was originally proposed to be 50 storeys and then reduced to 36 storeys 176 meters before it was put in the backburner...who is to say that they dont bring this back from the dead with a sparkling 75-80 storey supertall.....Hey, that location is one of the only ones left in the core that is politics-free with no height limits, and no shadowing issues.

 

[caltrane74]

First, a big issue here is whether we're referring to the millions of smaller startups associated with the tech industry that you really don't see elsewhere or the big players. It's interesting to note that downtown (mainly the west end) is home to a good majority of the small tech companies in the GTA ... I'll be specific - mobile application development - Toronto has actually become a little hub for this (and Toronto being mainly the west end of the downtown). But your right that these are the sort of industries that go boom and bust ... were in a boom right now.

But for the larger players, these are relatively stable; They may suffer more or less then your typical financial but I doubt that's true at all; They probably suffer at different times. Most large tech players are in Markham and the airport corporate center (west). Toronto has done little in the way to attract them. This may not be all negative as generally speeking what they've looked for (at least in the past) is large campus style developments which really don't work well downtown.

You also have to differentiate tech companies from the back end tech support all other companies require. For the later (which banks and the financial industry rely on heavily) it would be great for these to stay downtown but a lot have moved out to other areas in the GTA. Anyway, my argument here is Toronto should make a play on these. To me the best area for them is the waterfront along side corus.

Yes, my company, and I sell Mobile apps for all platforms, Google, Apple, RIM, and Windows 7. We use to be on King West, but we moved to Matheson on Airport Corporate Centre for the Cheap Rent.

We are still growing very rapidly!! - Our offices here are huge and very luxurious and comfortable compared to king west, it's almost like working and living in your own house.


I still love King West!

 

[maestro]

Southcore 2 is currently planned to be capped at grade . It won't be going ahead on spec.

 

[Ramako]

Southcore 2 is currently planned to be capped at grade . It won't be going ahead on spec.

Good. Maybe the future lead tenant will demand a re-design.

 

[taal]

Yes, my company, and I sell Mobile apps for all platforms, Google, Apple, RIM, and Windows 7. We use to be on King West, but we moved to Matheson on Airport Corporate Centre for the Cheap Rent.

We are still growing very rapidly!! - Our offices here are huge and very luxurious and comfortable compared to king west, it's almost like working and living in your own house.


I still love King West!

And I think this is the common story (correct me if I'm wrong) smaller tech companies start-up in the core and then move if they make it and grow substantially. Though I think there are quite a few larger tech companies in the mobile applications world that are still in the core today ? (large being relative here).

Any idea how much cheaper the rent is and if the operating cost (specifically taxes) are a large part of it ? I mean, it's inevitable rent will be cheaper in the airport corporate center west so that's OK - but if taxes were a large part of this that's not.

Also Toronto may want to try to attract these sort of companies to stay here!

 

[Brans89]

Both Delta Hotel and Bremner Tower are both under construction.

Bremner Tower is opening 2013 and Delta Hotel is opening 2014.

 

[TonyV]

Also Toronto may want to try to attract these sort of companies to stay here!

Try convincing our mayor, he of the "one-note-samba", to address this sort of issue and see what may happen. I suspect that this never enters his mind. On the other hand, if I am proven wrong, I may actually get to like 'im. (While I am semi-retired now, I know the hi-tech sector well; that is where I made my living).

How to make Toronto into a truly great city? Get jobs back down into the core again, and let 'er rip.

 

[taal]

Try convincing our mayor, he of the "one-note-samba", to address this sort of issue and see what may happen. I suspect that this never enters his mind. On the other hand, if I am proven wrong, I may actually get to like 'im. (While I am semi-retired now, I know the hi-tech sector well; that is where I made my living).

How to make Toronto into a truly great city? Get jobs back down into the core again, and let 'er rip.

This statement 'Get jobs back down into the core again' isn't very accurate though. Unless your referring to lost industrial jobs it's not as if many jobs shifted out of the core. Yes some did over the years (particularly in the early 2000) but really the argument here is how to attract jobs that were never really here in the first place. Tech companies have never been big on locating in the core of Toronto. To be honest it's not even really a Toronto thing, you'll find most larg tech companies are never in the core of any cities. Of course there are exceptions here (even in Toronto) but still.

So I doubt there's an easy resolution to it. Also, the market dictates a lot - if taxes aren't the sole reason (i.e. because they're disportionatly higher in toronto proper - almost 100% higher) then the market will have it's way and that's fine.

I'm also in the tech industry and work in said suburbs so I'm probably biased in wanting that to change : ).

 

[CITY_LOVER]

Southcore 2 is currently planned to be capped at grade . It won't be going ahead on spec.

No way, I hope you're wrong! Are you joking? 'Cause if you're, that is a bad one...don't be like that...you could get banned!

If you're right, then that sucks! I haven't heard of such a thing yet regarding this project.