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Toronto 2030

I don't mean literally "wealthy", I mean that the property will be less affordable due to gentrification -- however, there will also be an improvement in income for existing residents due to new employment opportunities and lower living costs. Those who don't reap the benefits should be protected by transitional measures, like geared to income housing (that's what I meant by longer term development planning).
 
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Right. What I'm saying is that the level of wealth required to be able to live close to rapid transit is lowered as you expand rapid transit.
 
My main point is there was too strong of a doom and gloom sentiment with the original post, making it seem like a very Toronto only issue; Which I disagree with.

I think the fact our suburbs don't experience much in the way of job growth (i.e. the outer 416) is more of a Toronto only issue but this isn't the direct cause of the income disparity.

You argue the 'data proves it' what does it prove ? The poor are getting poorer and the rich richer, all while there are more and more poor people ? Okay, I completely agree, but again you'll see this everywhere.

To a certain degree this is a result of the capitalistic system we have in North American, there are only so much high paying jobs to go around and so many more lower wage ones; These people will undoubtedly be a lot worse off and represent the poor you refer too; Consider cleaning staff / any sort of workers.
The shift away from manufacturing cut out a lot of the middle of the road jobs.

Back in the day manufacturing jobs pay a wage that would likely stick you directly in the middle (or low middle class), we've gotten rid of these, North America as a whole ...


I think Toronto needs to do a better job attracting more jobs, the rest will come, social services are great but as you all alude to that takes a willing government, government(s). The core and the surburbs (outer 416) need to keep adding jobs, you can argue the core is doing OK in this regard but not the rest of Toronto.


I think transporation will get better, mainly on the back of GO, not transit city; Though transit city serves its own purpose as well.
 
taal said:
But one thing to keep in mind here ... why make out the income polarization as Toronto issue ... it's not ... many other Canadian and North American cities have undergone similar changes, and to even larger degrees.

Want proof ? Do the following in your favorite search engine:
"Income disparity in ***"
Replace *** with any city you like ...

It's not always the same i.e. in some cases it's more race based and not so area based, but there's always concentrations, and they're getting worse ... just like here.
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I missed this bit.

I don't think anyone's trying to make this out as a problem unique to Toronto. Also, what's your point? We shouldn't deal with it because it isn't unique to Toronto? This is the single largest problem facing our city over the next 20 years (it will be the root cause of many other problems) and how we manage it will affect the future of the city. We don't have to wait 20 years to see the consequences of not addressing the problem.

taal said:
To a certain degree this is a result of the capitalistic system we have in North American, there are only so much high paying jobs to go around and so many more lower wage ones; These people will undoubtedly be a lot worse off and represent the poor you refer too; Consider cleaning staff / any sort of workers.
The shift away from manufacturing cut out a lot of the middle of the road jobs.
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Okay, you're touching on the broader problems of class-based capitalist society. Without taking it to extremes of doctors, lawyers, and shoe-shine boys, the problem I think we need to address is to improve the quality of life and living situation in the outer suburbs.
 
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grey said:
That was the point of Transit City -- not only that it would connect the outer suburbs to inner city employment centres, but that LRT would foster employment areas in the suburbs themselves. Urbanize the suburbs rather than continuing to ship everyone downtown. They need affordable housing AND local access to services that we have in urban areas of the city. LRT benefits even those who don't use it.
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That is a pipe dream. The outer suburbs, with thier poor public transportation, lost employment to areas in the 905 that have no public transportation. Transit City would not change this.

The Priority neighbourhood program was another resume builder for David Miller. The areas continued to decline, but he could cut another ribbon at the opening of a basketball court. The prioirty neighbourhoods need employment, not basketball, opportunities.
 
taal said:
To a certain degree this is a result of the capitalistic system we have in North American
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It has as much to do with ours being a Conservative Nanny State, where only certain segments of society face global competition. If we were allowed to purchase services from doctors, lawyer, etc. abroad we would quickly see just how uncompetitive our professionals are.
 
"I actually believe today's smaller cities will see the most potential growth. Windsor, London, Kitchener/Waterloo, Hamilton, Kingston, Ottawa, and Montreal I believe will be more livable than Toronto and region. God willing, we the planners of tomorrow, will be able to grow these cities in a more livable and sustainable way than we did the GTA."

That's an interesting perspective Electrify because I have the exact opposite hunch. I think smaller centres will continue to decline economically. I also believe the old 416 / 905 dynamic that is still espoused by many has become outdated. My hunch is that sprawl aside the 2000's decade was less favourable to the 905 region than Toronto, just as the 90's was most unfavourable to Toronto. In a regional sense I think the economic trend will see small Ontario cities who are most tied to regional US states preform the worst. Next the 905 region on average and outer suburbs of 416 will preform based on the overall US economic picture. Finally, the inner city of Toronto and select 905 regions will preform relative to the best preforming parts of Canada and the world economy.
 
ticky said:
Public transport will remain just as terrible as it is now. Check that: It'll probably be even worse.
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denfromoakvillemilton said:
Nice points but I need you two to expand on your points here.
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The TTC in the downtown core now is at capacity and there is no real plan to help alleviate it. A major metropolitan city with only two subways lines is really the worst joke I've ever seen.
 
Regarding income disparity, it is definitely an issue that will continue to affect Toronto. The city can provide services that may mitigate the harsher realities of an economically polarized society, but it can do very little to reverse a global trend that's been on-going for 30 years or so (in the same way that no matter how green the city itself becomes, it cannot reverse climate change alone). Toronto is not an island and what happens elsewhere will impact us in unimaginable ways. In essence, asking a Torontonian what their city will be like in 2030 today is akin to asking a Torontonian in 1911 about 1930, or 1933 about 1954. In all cases we'd see a huge gap between the prediction and the reality, and very little of that difference would be solely on account of what was going on at the local level. Trends do not continue indefinitely. It's quite possible that the income gap will slowly begin to shrink. It's also possible that 10% of our population could be killed off in some freak epidemic, or that global depression will destroy what's left of our economy, or that we'll be swamped by environmental refugees, etc.
 
Glen said:
That is a pipe dream. The outer suburbs, with thier poor public transportation, lost employment to areas in the 905 that have no public transportation. Transit City would not change this.

The Priority neighbourhood program was another resume builder for David Miller. The areas continued to decline, but he could cut another ribbon at the opening of a basketball court. The prioirty neighbourhoods need employment, not basketball, opportunities.
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Haven't heard from you in a while Glen. Right, my point exactly regarding transit city ... having said that I think it deserves some credit and would have done some good ... but not on the commercial (i.e. jobs) side of things.

Regarding your next comment, if it were not for the tax differential, is it in your opinion there would be more employment in the outer 416 i.e. is there anything else at play here ?

To me its a little chicken in the egg, companies what to locate closer to their middle class workforce, and a lot of that is in the 905, because the outer 416 tends to be more on the poorer end of the spectrum.

What's your take on projects like downtown Markham (just using that as an example) bur suburban intensification in general; Do you think this will drive even more business to the 905, or not really have much impact; Though we already know theres very little growth in the outer 416 anyway.
 
Wow - all this doom and gloom here! I'm actually still a student and the general trend that almost my entire generation displays is a hate for the suburbs and a love for downtown(s). I'm not talking about just downtown Toronto - I'm talking about quaint, urban areas that are liveable, walkable, and breathable. This entire generation has grown up in the suburbs - in stark contrast to their parents who hail from the much denser cities, the quieter suburbs of yesterday, the farms, etc. The suburbs nowadays aren't the suburbs they used to be - they are a meaner, scarier place. Just looking at my hometown of Mississauga, you can see that it has grown unsustainably at a rapid pace. The 3 or 4 lane arterials are clogged with cars, driving home from work is now a nightmare. Even my parents (dedicated suburbanites) are starting to complain at the frenzied pace of the suburbs. There is absolutely nothing about the outer areas of the GTA that is attractive anymore. Have a drive down the northern stretch of Mavis near Heartland in Mississauga during rush hour one day. You have to be crazy to live/shop/work there. Before, suburbs used to be a break from the hustle and bustle of downtown and an opportunity to experience a bit of nature. Now, they are neither quieter than downtown (in fact, I'd argue that they are busier in terms of car traffic and pollution), nor can they be compared with anything natural. You get neither the convenience of urban areas or the experience of the country life.

I think people will gravitate towards downtown(s) such as Toronto, Mississauga City Centre, etc.; however a few things will have to occur for these downtown areas to remain so desirable.

1) Gas prices will have to remain high, and no viable, cheap electric car will have to be produced.
2) Efficient, reliable public transit will have to be built i.e. the return of Transit City (of which there is some faint hope) and the DRL (which the province seems to be seriously considering!)
3) Downtown's amenities (shopping, entertainment, parks, etc.) will have to continuously expand and remain attractive.
4) Toronto will have to be the centre of employment in the GTHA.
5) A new mayor will HAVE to be elected after Ford's term ends.

There are so many great things happening right now in Toronto, even with the current regime, that I'm quite surprised at the negativity here! Everyone here mentions that public transit will only get worse. Last time I checked, the Eglinton LRT is under contruction, GO service is improving, TTC ridership increasing, and the ARL is under contruction. Just have a glance at Christopher Hume's analysis in today's Star. Toronto, folks, will only become bigger and better! Let's be optimistic about the future. The posters here (theoretically fans of urbanism) should know better and be proud of the city they live in.
 
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