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Theatre Park 
224 King St W, Toronto
Developer: Lamb Development Corp, Niche Development, Harhay Developments

Theatre Park Condos (Lamb Development Corp , Niche Development) - Real Estate -

Discussion in 'Real Estate - Individual Project Threads' started by aguduser, Nov 27, 2010.

  1. aguduser

    aguduser A part of UT

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    #1

  2. JayBee

    JayBee Senior Member

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    If you plan on renting it.... NO
    If you plan on flipping it.... NO
    If you plan on living there for a while...perhaps

    I like Theater Park but the prices are just too steep IMO. $470K (no parking) for a <700 sqft unit. You think that sounds right?
     
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  3. cdr108

    cdr108 Senior Member

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    sure, why not because TO R/E only goes up ...

    while you're at it, see if you can get the developer to move the W/D squeezed into the bathroom since it's about 10 ft wide, or maybe into the bedroom closet since this 1+d will likely accommodate a single person or couple (not roomates).
    that leaves more room than the mere 1 1/2 ft allocated for the main entry closet.
     
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  4. aguduser

    aguduser A part of UT

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    Are you just being sarcastic? :)
    (It doesn't sound like you... somehow I got the impression that you were bearish, maybe I was wrong.)

    No changes allowed by the builder.
     
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  5. interested

    interested Senior Member

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    Of course he is being sarcastic aguduser. cdr has often posted that he is bearish.

    My view on Theatre Park is this is amongst the best location out there right now. I agree with Jaybee if you want to live there and are not going to be upset if there is a downward price reduction, fine. I would not even consider it for rental (math doesn't work with current rents) nor flipping (huge risk in my view).

    Otherwise, this is in line with other downtown projects. That said, I agree wholeheartedly that all of downtown is overvalued. But then, alot of people have been saying that since 2002 so...

    I think the downside risk however is significant, the upside potential very little.

    I would only buy if you plan to live there, love the building, location and are prepared to stay for 5+years.

    Hope this helps.
     
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  6. aguduser

    aguduser A part of UT

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    Thanks, interested, for the insights.

    Flipping would not work as no assignments allowed. What I know is a lot of investors in this projects are with big budgets, who can hold onto to their investments and close them.
     
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  7. interested

    interested Senior Member

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    I am not sure how you would know that. However, real investors aguduser do not invest to lose money. So either they are in for the long haul and believe prices will continue to escalate long term. There are those on some of the forums who believe this and perhaps the more vocal of us who don't think over the next few years prices will escalate. However, that is what makes a market and why there is no certainty. If we knew 100% what would happen, we would all be millionaires and no one would have to work. Just invest and make money.

    If there is alot of foreign investment in the project and I don't know if there is or isn't, that money logically should go where it can make a "stable rate of return" in a reasonable risk environment. And if Toronto is that today, and for arguments sake Chicago was that tomorrow, expect the foreign investment to abandon Toronto in favour for Chicago. (This is not what I think will happen nor is Chicago stable or safe now, but I throw it out there as an example to make a point).

    If the only thing supporting these prices are those investors, and the locals cannot pay rents commensurate with the prices asked to yield a reasonable rate of return, then ask yourself what happens shoudl the foreign investors "change their minds" and locals are better off to rent vs. to buy. Presumably, prices will once again approach historic norms.

    All that said, again I re iterate, in my opinion, from a location point of view and talking about location only, I don't think there are too many projects in the core that get any better than this. However, will it command a premium going forward for this, maybe so but the question will be how much. Also, Cinema I believe it is called is going behind the Daniel's Festival Theatre and Daniel's markets when it is up and near completion. A big project going to hit presumably a year before or so that Theatre Park will and about 400 units to go on sale which will be a competition to Theatre Park.

    Of course if prices are further up, all those of us who are somewhat concerned/bearish will be scratching our heads still waiting for a correction.
     
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  8. cdr108

    cdr108 Senior Member

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    bearish, no ... realist, yes.

    at current low interest rates, $500 PSF can be supported temporarily.
    if rates were to go up just a few 100 basis points to the historical average, $350-375 PSF would be affordable/sustainable.

    however, considering all Canadian mortgages are like US ARMs that reset, it WILL be at a higher rate and subject to renewal every few years unlike US mortgages that can get fixed rate 25 / 30 / 35 / 40-year terms.

    at least in the US, having the fixed rate terms, one is minimizing a great risk.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
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  9. neuhaus

    neuhaus Senior Member

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    The building is beautiful, location is great, and the amenities and common spaces are stunning, but $470,000 is very expensive for a small unremarkable floor plan.
    I find it strange that the Living/Dining room dimensions includes part of the kitchen (which no dimensions are given), and that the washer/dryer takes up most of the entry closet.

    If you can comfortably afford it, plan to live in it for the long run, don't mind the cramped quarters, and absolutely love it, than go for it. But other than that I think it is a poor investment as based on the crazy amount of sales achieved at their VIP opening the building is being bought up mostly by investors which is never a good sign.
     
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  10. SLOCRO

    SLOCRO New Member

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    Other desirable, downtown areas of the city (like King/Spadina to the west) are selling at around $600/sqf (smaller units). You could then, for argument sake, maybe get a nice 800+ sqf unit with nice finishes elsewhere on King for roughly the same price (instead of 685 sqf).

    I've often seen bigger, 800+ square foot units that have 150 square feet of unusable hallways, generally narrower and more tunnel-like. What's better: liveable/usable space or more space to brush your teeth and pace? From what I see, this unit has no wasted space; over 20 feet of south exposure windows (28th floor I imagine means the lake in between the Ritz, RBC, CN Tower, Skydome); a bigger than average balcony (though length is nice - more importantly is looks to be over 7 feet deep); Brad J. Lamb condo finishes are better than average; location X 3, subway line, but alas - no parking.

    To each their own, but I prefer smaller and better designed over bigger, no view and poorly laid out. As already pointed out on urbantoronto, I don't think it's the first-time, decided to dabble in real estate on a whim crowd buying into this building. I imagine the people buying are the ones who know they can hold the property during inclement real estate weather and know some factors like location will always hold value.
     
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  11. aguduser

    aguduser A part of UT

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    Thanks, Slocro, for your opinions! Mine are very much the same.
     
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  12. interested

    interested Senior Member

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    Aguduser, can we ask: Is this an investment for you or a place to live (realizing that one should still make sure the investment of a living place makes sense)? And if you plan to hold the investment, what is your intended time frame realizing situations change and events may dictate a change of plan.
     
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  13. aguduser

    aguduser A part of UT

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    Interested, it's for investment. However I currently owned only one condo, I may decide to sell it and move to Theatre Park if that is a better solution for me at the time of closing.
     
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  14. carturo15

    carturo15 Active Member

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    What makes you beleive this is a good investment option for you? we can say a lot of things in this forum, but you could have your own reasons to believe in this project as an investment
     
    #14
  15. aguduser

    aguduser A part of UT

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    Carturo15, besides some of the good things that have been mentioned above by Slocro: the unit has a decent floor plan, good view, the quality of the finishes by this builder will be good, the building design is nice, good location - nice area, close to subway...etc; what makes me believe in it the most is that I find myself desire to live there - so if I want it that much, there probably are others who will want it too - good for resale. And also, you can't get any closer to Roy Thompson Hall than this, and there is really no other parking lot left to be built up in that block. So in terms of location, it may be just as good as it can get.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
    #15

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