Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

Fair enough. RATP and RER are one group in Paris too for example.

What would change if we followed this model? Outline your thoughts.

Per above, yeah, Detroit is not a world-class city, I'm sorry to say. Baltimore even less so - and I say that as a big fan of The Wire. Indeed, both are prime examples of post-industrial cities being "left behind."

New York, Chicago, Paris, London - all the cities we aspire to be included with - have regional transit authorities.

And as Mr. F says, we're just so used to our system we don't see the flaws, though we do like to complain about how cities like NYC and Montreal have so much more subway than we do. Our system was designed primarily in the middle of the last century and it worked as long as most of the urban growth was in Toronto; the flat fare, the transfer system, all the commuter trains piling in and out of Union at rush hour, satellite systems in Markham and Mississauga and whatnot serving their limited islands in isolation etc. But too many other suburban centres have grown around the core, there's too much population growth there and too little new infrastructure was added within the core. The model we built to perfection in the 70s, which was at that time a model others studied, is now obsolete. Has been for close to a generation, arguably (its end accelerated by the Harris-era cuts).

I've outlined my thoughts on appropriate threads but in short:
-Metrolinx should be a proper arms-length authority with a reconstituted board that includes a mix of experts, community members and politicians
-It should be funded directly through tolls and other revenue tools and accordingly not answer to any single city, nor the provincial government
-Regional funding and representation gives it a proper mandate to fund both operating (ie fare integration) and capital aspects of transit and to properly prioritize projects (e.g. solicit Toronto's opinion on a LRT or subway for a given corridor but then make the decision based on a combination of that input and hard data, unswayed by what people think they "deserve." I don't mean to slag Scarborough specifically; merely the process.)
-I'm not enough of a governance expert to suggest precisely how the local agencies should work but I see no reason something akin to the MTA shouldn't work here, with local agencies all operating together under a single, larger umbrella. But funding and governance are key to it having a legitimate and functional mandate. Today's Metrolinx goes maybe 40% of the way there.

So,to come back on thread, it might seem "unfair" to Toronto taxpayers they're building this subway to Vaughan, because it's a TTC project. But if you look at the Big Move map, none of the cross-border projects (including the Yonge subway and RER) seem nonsensical or unfair. It's only when you zoom in and see the little lines we've drawn for municipal borders (mostly in the 1970s) that the problems arise. Establish a governing body with pooled funding and those lines disappear again. That's my 5 cents.
 
So,to come back on thread, it might seem "unfair" to Toronto taxpayers they're building this subway to Vaughan, because it's a TTC project.

York Region is paying for it's share of the subway's capital costs though. So it's not "unfair" to them. The only thing they're on the hook for in Vaughan is operating the subway, but (A) the vast majority of people taking the subway there would be travelling to or from Toronto, and (B) the TTC is free to bring back zone fares (and hopefully introduce them across the entire system)
 
York Region is paying for it's share of the subway's capital costs though. So it's not "unfair" to them. The only thing they're on the hook for in Vaughan is operating the subway, but (A) the vast majority of people taking the subway there would be travelling to or from Toronto, and (B) the TTC is free to bring back zone fares (and hopefully introduce them across the entire system)

Those fares won't cover the operating expenses of the extension.
 
I did put "unfair" in quotes. Point is:
a) It's subjective
b) It would be "more fair" were TTC (and YRT, for that matter, and everyone else) receiving ongoing regional funding

Regardless of whether one agrees with this project or that one, and no matter how you feel about new lines going to suburbs (especially the godforsaken 905!) the process right now is not just piecemeal and political but overtly and entirely immune to objective data and proper prioritization. No one is on the same page (especially Toronto) and there is no reason for them to be. While there have been problems with the Presto roll-out, unquestionably, it's true that Toronto would probably still be on tokens - and wouldn't have even started looking at open payment - were it not for the province forcing Presto on them. The core idea - a single payment medium for the entire region - was not (and is not, far as I know) of major interest to TTC.

A proper transit authority would eliminate most of this problem. Most of the objections to this subway, and to the Yonge line, boil down to "but it's not Toronto!" which boils down to "why should my taxes pay for a line in Markham or Vaughan?" (To an extent this argument exists with Scarborough but it has less weight and the questioning is less of the line's existence than of which mode. Vaughan also has a bit of, "but it's just a field with an Ikea!" of course, but that's being disproven every day that goes by.) Pooled taxes would eliminate the main argument , or a at least severely undermine it.
 
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Our worst fears have been realized:
24570-85379.jpg
 
In the front page article it says,
SmartREIT is participating, in part, because it encouraged the project planners to relocate the terminal from a site east of the subway station structure to its current location north of the station.

Why was it relocated?
 
I would think they'd be legally obligated. Someone will have to confirm that.

AoD

on closer reading of the article guess how much Smartreit "contributed..."? $500000!!! thats chump change for naming rights......
Has Metrolinx/TTC seriously gone to those lengths to find an extra 0.5 mil? The terminal will now be called SmartCentres Place Bus Terminal. (at least its not as smartcenteres terminal vaughan metropolitan center)....
Seriously I bet if we start a crowdfunding campaign to buy back the naming rights I'd bet we can double up on their measly deal....
 
on closer reading of the article guess how much Smartreit "contributed..."? $500000!!! thats chump change for naming rights......
Has Metrolinx/TTC seriously gone to those lengths to find an extra 0.5 mil? The terminal will now be called SmartCentres Place Bus Terminal. (at least its not as smartcenteres terminal vaughan metropolitan center)....
Seriously I bet if we start a crowdfunding campaign to buy back the naming rights I'd bet we can double up on their measly deal....

An example from abroad - in Madrid:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10016166/Madrid-rebrands-metro-in-Vodafone-deal.html

3M Euro for 3 years at one of the busiest, most symbolic stations in the system. And yes, the automated announcements actually call it "Vodafone Sol".

AoD
 
on closer reading of the article guess how much Smartreit "contributed..."? $500000!!! thats chump change for naming rights......

What do you base that on? How does it compare to all the other suburban bus terminal naming rights deals we have seen?

Has Metrolinx/TTC seriously gone to those lengths to find an extra 0.5 mil? The terminal will now be called SmartCentres Place Bus Terminal. (at least its not as smartcenteres terminal vaughan metropolitan center)....
Seriously I bet if we start a crowdfunding campaign to buy back the naming rights I'd bet we can double up on their measly deal....

go one...give it a go. I think you might be surprised how far short of your $1MM goal you would fall.
 
What do you base that on? How does it compare to all the other suburban bus terminal naming rights deals we have seen?


go one...give it a go. I think you might be surprised how far short of your $1MM goal you would fall.

1. considering the project costs BILLIONS and TENS of MILLIONS were spent on this terminal alone, I would have expected them to at least ask for more coin.
I would welcome a clarification from officials on what smartreit actually paid to brand and name this terminal. How it compares? well pretty terribly imo...what marketing value does this bring
to both parties? Mississauga has square one which is a huge shopping complex. Yorkdale (if they actually did buy rights) links to a huge mall as well. Whats there? Home Outfitters.....Walmart..... Unless they plan to develop a yorkdale or Sq1 like area, they wasted their naming rights on the wrong buyer.

2. I guess you didnt detect any sarcasm in my last statement did you....but in all honesty, I wouldnt be surprised if this name change would do well in the polls. in fact I would bet more people will be angry vs black creek pioneer village station
 
1. considering the project costs BILLIONS and TENS of MILLIONS were spent on this terminal alone, I would have expected them to at least ask for more coin.

You are assuming that they did not ask for more. Like all things it was probably a negotiated price and that is what they got. Not sure what the cost of construction has to do with the value of naming rights though.

I would welcome a clarification from officials on what smartreit actually paid to brand and name this terminal. How it compares? well pretty terribly imo...

What comparables are you using?

what marketing value does this bring
to both parties? Mississauga has square one which is a huge shopping complex. Yorkdale (if they actually did buy rights) links to a huge mall as well. Whats there? Home Outfitters.....Walmart..... Unless they plan to develop a yorkdale or Sq1 like area, they wasted their naming rights on the wrong buyer.

Marketing value is probably very close to zero......would there be many (any?) people riding a YRT bus to that location that would not be aware of SmartCentres presence in the area? Fortunately, a 1/2 million marketing expense and a 1/2 million charitable donation probably have a similar impact on Smart Centres books. ;)

2. I guess you didnt detect any sarcasm in my last statement did you....but in all honesty, I wouldnt be surprised if this name change would do well in the polls. in fact I would bet more people will be angry vs black creek pioneer village station

No, I did not dectect sarcasm.
 

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