SmartTrack (Proposed)

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes. I was not disputing the study, Models are supposed to provide views of a range of scenarios. If the model is robust, you can run as many scenarios as the thinkers can generate.

I was observing on how the other side of ML is making definitive public pronouncements of what the plan will be... and how it is neither the current base case described by the planners as quoted by Mr Munro , nor operationally feasible, nor do they incorporate the Tory view of ST. If you don't know where you are going, even the best model won't help.

- Paul

If by "incorporate the Tory view of ST", you mean adding the numerous ST stations to the model: it's my understanding that track geometry and scheduling conflicts with GO and GO express service makes adding most of these stations impossible.

They did do the model with 15 min frequencies and found that it had little impact on Yonge Line. I wouldn't expect any miracles to happen by adding the additional stations to the model.

 

[ssiguy2]

Combining RER and ST frequencies is disingenuous. RER will have a higher fare while ST will accept your standard TTC ticket/pass and is to run every 10 minutes. They have presented a scenario showing TTC trains ST running every 30 minutes as opposed to it's endorsed 10 minutes. RER is a completely different service as it will cost more. No one is going to pay extra to transfer at Pape station to a RER line that will cost them a lot more money for a tiny trip nor will they wait half an hour for a regular priced ST train to get them there. They will, however, wait 10 minutes {and they could run every 3 minutes if they wanted as they do in Syd/Mel} for a regular priced train to get them to Union without going thru Y&B.

I don't blame Tory for being mad as this is not even close to the frequency of service that ST will provide.

 

[nfitz]

How can it be disingenuous when they also ran much higher frequencies with virtually no change to the results?

It was an assumption, and they tested it by running very frequent as well. So what difference does it make?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Combining RER and ST frequencies is disingenuous. RER will have a higher fare while ST will accept your standard TTC ticket/pass and is to run every 10 minutes. They have presented a scenario showing TTC trains ST running every 30 minutes as opposed to it's endorsed 10 minutes. RER is a completely different service as it will cost more. No one is going to pay extra to transfer at Pape station to a RER line that will cost them a lot more money for a tiny trip nor will they wait half an hour for a regular priced ST train to get them there. They will, however, wait 10 minutes {and they could run every 3 minutes if they wanted as they do in Syd/Mel} for a regular priced train to get them to Union without going thru Y&B

Metrolinx and City of Toronto staff have both confirmed that SmartTrack and GO RER are the same service. They used RER in the modelling. There's no issue discrepancy here.

Regarding frequencies, from what I've been reading, those higher frrquencies should be impossible. However, whether or not it is impossible doesn't matter. They modelled higher frequencies than 30 min and found that it had no impact on relieving Yonge Line.

 

[crs1026]

That would leave me thinking, since RER is justified on the merits of the 905 needing it, proceed with it, accepting that it may draw some passengers away from the subway picture (but not enough to provide an alternative to the relief line). Accept that the Relief Line issue has not been eliminated.

The question then becomes....what is the cost of building ST on top of RER (in whatever form RER becomes) on that line? And what service level is actually practical taking the actual RER service plan as a given? And what would the ridership/benefit derived be if that were done....in particular, is it a preferable solution to SRT or Line 2 extension?

- Paul

 

[mdrejhon]

Combining RER and ST frequencies is disingenuous. RER will have a higher fare while ST will accept your standard TTC ticket/pass and is to run every 10 minutes. They have presented a scenario showing TTC trains ST running every 30 minutes as opposed to it's endorsed 10 minutes. RER is a completely different service as it will cost more. No one is going to pay extra to transfer at Pape station to a RER line that will cost them a lot more money for a tiny trip nor will they wait half an hour for a regular priced ST train to get them there. They will, however, wait 10 minutes {and they could run every 3 minutes if they wanted as they do in Syd/Mel} for a regular priced train to get them to Union without going thru Y&B.

Uh, no.

Here's what Ontario and Metrolinx documents are currently pointing in direction of.

This is an almost-but-certain prediction (if SmartTrack goes ahead) for the Bramalea-Unionville and all derivative routes (e.g. Airport spur)

Bramalea-Unionville
1. SmartTrack and GO RER is the same
2. Same fare
3. Same trainset
4. Same branding
5. Same look and feel
6. All non-express trains will stop at the infill stations
7. There is a spur inspired by SmartTrack. Such as westwards on Eglinton (from Weston) or southwards to Airport (from Woodbine)
8. Every N minutes between Unionville and the last station before spur
9. Every (N * 2) minutes to Bramalea (or beyond)
10. Every (N * 2) minutes down spur

This is exactly the technique they do in:
- Paris, France (RER)
- Sydney, Australia (Sydney Trains)
- Calgary, Canada (C-Train)

What happens is the central segment of rail is overlapped and highly frequent service in the core area, but diverges alternatingly on different spurs in the outer area.

Example, SmartTrack will alternate spurs, like C-Train:

(credit: wikipedia)

Metrolinx/Ontario says SmartTrack will behave like this -- All current indictions, is if SmartTrack proceeds, then every identical SmartTrack train will alternatingly take the airport spur direction versus the Bramalea direction. Same look, same train, same fare, same stops.

Obviously, this excludes:
- Trains that are express or semi-express (e.g. Kitchener trains that goes express after Bramalea)
- Trains that go beyond Bramalea/Unionville
- Other GO train routes (which may not get full TTC integration)
These will obviously be higher fare.

So if they choose 15 mins for the core segment and 30 minutes for the spur (taking turns). If N = 15 minutes, then every 30 minutes to Bramalea and every 30 minutes to airport. Recent Metrolinx information have been suggesting this is going to happen exactly, or almost exactly as, as I describe in this post. With further refinements, to corridor capacity, it could be N = 7.5 or N = 10 instead.

SmartTrack and GO RER (along SmartTrack route) is no different. The fare will be the same along the Bramalea-Unionville segment versus SmartTrack stations.

 

[yyzhyd]

Wondering if an express routing of a Bramalea-Unionville SmartTrack train could eventually become a nice little technology corridor shuttle between Kitchener <--> Toronto <--> Markham.

 

[mdrejhon]

Wondering if an express routing of a Bramalea-Unionville SmartTrack train could eventually become a nice little technology corridor shuttle between Kitchener <--> Toronto <--> Markham.

Eventually, yes.

Metrolinx's ultimate intent is to electricify all the corridor, and electrifation to Kitchener will also be required as an interim first step before highspeed rail (under study). Metrolinx owns most of the rail corridor to Kitchener now, the main gotcha is the CN-owned small segment. This is exactly why GO RER (phase 1 electrification) stops at Bramalea for now, but multiple solutions are currently in the works (Metrolinx is currently negotiating with CN for electrifying into Brampton and Mt Pleasantville, and if that fails, there are possible alternatives such as the Freight Bypass). Once this is done, sooner or later, there's no stopping SmartTrack trainsets from reaching Pleasantville eventually, and then Kitchener. Depending on trainset selection, of course, and the demand for traffic. Obviously it would not run every 15 minutes to Kitchener with current population, but hourly 2-way electrified service within 25 years sounds feasible.

The other fly in the ointment is the use of lighter (non-FRA) trains, such as the Stadler KISS (which Ontario, GOTransit & Metrolinx is now very frequently pictogramming -- The pictogram might even be the SmartTrack train). Transport Canada restricts lighter trains on heavy-rail corridor, but Transport Canada has communicated flexibility which keeps the door open. Transport Canada would force requirements to permit lighter SmartTrack trains on GO network (e.g. full grade separation, and perhaps Positive Train Control) before allowing it to happen. This is not saying it will happen, but the door is definitely open, especially if politically accelerated.

(drum roll.... look at Thomas Mulcair's love of trains -- including high speed trains, choo, choo!).

If such a train is chosen, it won't be allowed to go to Kitchener if only the Bramalea-Stoufville section is made compliant. At least until corridor megaprojects (e.g. for HSR) occur all the way to Kitchener to make the corridor comply with any Transport Canada waiver for the SmartTrack trainset (if one is given).

In this case, the SmartTrack EMU would cover the core segment, while electric-locomotive-driven bilevels would go beyond the SmartTrack endpoints -- at least initially. But the Bombardier BiLevels will eventually wear out in the coming decades. Metrolinx will probably only replace them with electrics. Eventually, SmartTrack trainsets could reach Kitchener -- albiet long after electric-locomotive driven 12-car bilevels have been running for a long time.

Then again, accelerated high speed rail plans in a future government change may cause bilevels to be reallocated away from the Kitchener-Stoufville route sooner than later (to run only EMUs). Lots can suddenly change.

 

[robmausser]

You can always count on people to claim the studies were fudged when they don't end up with the desired result.

The point of any study in the academic and scientific community is to debate and peer review those studies ad nauseam until the truth comes out. That is exactly what you are supposed to do.

However these are government studies so we are just supposed to take what they say at their word.

I hope that people constantly question everything, and pity those who simply take government agencies at their word.

 

[ssiguy2]

I certainly hope RER and ST are the same as ST became popular becauser it was a TTC fare system so if RER is as well {within the city of Toronto} then ST won't even be needed as long as RER frequency is there.

 

[TOareaFan]

Eventually, yes.

Metrolinx's ultimate intent is to electricify all the corridor, and electrifation to Kitchener will also be required as an interim first step before highspeed rail (under study). Metrolinx owns most of the rail corridor to Kitchener now, the main gotcha is the CN-owned small segment. This is exactly why GO RER (phase 1 electrification) stops at Bramalea for now, but multiple solutions are currently in the works (Metrolinx is currently negotiating with CN for electrifying into Brampton and Mt Pleasantville, and if that fails, there are possible alternatives such as the Freight Bypass). Once this is done, sooner or later, there's no stopping SmartTrack trainsets from reaching Pleasantville eventually, and then Kitchener. Depending on trainset selection, of course, and the demand for traffic. Obviously it would not run every 15 minutes to Kitchener with current population, but hourly 2-way electrified service within 25 years sounds feasible.

The other fly in the ointment is the use of lighter (non-FRA) trains, such as the Stadler KISS (which Ontario, GOTransit & Metrolinx is now very frequently pictogramming -- The pictogram might even be the SmartTrack train). Transport Canada restricts lighter trains on heavy-rail corridor, but Transport Canada has communicated flexibility which keeps the door open. Transport Canada would force requirements to permit lighter SmartTrack trains on GO network (e.g. full grade separation, and perhaps Positive Train Control) before allowing it to happen. This is not saying it will happen, but the door is definitely open, especially if politically accelerated.

(drum roll.... look at Thomas Mulcair's love of trains -- including high speed trains, choo, choo!).

If such a train is chosen, it won't be allowed to go to Kitchener if only the Bramalea-Stoufville section is made compliant. At least until corridor megaprojects (e.g. for HSR) occur all the way to Kitchener to make the corridor comply with any Transport Canada waiver for the SmartTrack trainset (if one is given).

In this case, the SmartTrack EMU would cover the core segment, while electric-locomotive-driven bilevels would go beyond the SmartTrack endpoints -- at least initially. But the Bombardier BiLevels will eventually wear out in the coming decades. Metrolinx will probably only replace them with electrics. Eventually, SmartTrack trainsets could reach Kitchener -- albiet long after electric-locomotive driven 12-car bilevels have been running for a long time.

Then again, accelerated high speed rail plans in a future government change may cause bilevels to be reallocated away from the Kitchener-Stoufville route sooner than later (to run only EMUs). Lots can suddenly change.

It is always difficult for me to discern in your posts which things you state in a very factual manner are indeed facts and which are speculation and/or extrapolation/wishful thinking. I think I am getting the hang of it though and when you have a fact you include a link to it....so is there a link to where CN and ML are negotiating on electrification of the parts of the corridor that are still CN owned? As I have said in the past, I think ML gets outnegotiated on purchases, I think they only get to buy the parts that CN consider surplus and, even then, there is always the clause that says freight continues to be guaranteed no worse access to the corridor sold than what they had before....so the end result is cash infusion to CN with virtually no operational impact on them and minimal value to ML.....the worst one in my viewpoint was the last purchase in this corridor.....by not tying that purchase to CN also selling the stretch between Bramalea and Georgetown ML left themselves with a donut hole of a corridor and gaining nothing for it....but to add insult to injury....they also sent CN a cheque for the station in the middle of the hole "we won't sell you the track but can we have some money for the old station building beside the track?".....so in a world where it is good to be proven wrong sometimes....it would be nice to see that they are actually negotiating something around the hole in the donut....if not a sale at least co-operating in other ways.

BTW Pleasantville is a Toby McGuire movie....Mount Pleasant is a GO station/mobility hub/neighbourhood in Brampton

 

[the lemur]

Frequency and conflicts with GO service aside, has there been any discussion of what kind of vehicles a Smart Track service (RER or otherwise) would use?

 

[gweed123]

Frequency and conflicts with GO service aside, has there been any discussion of what kind of vehicles a Smart Track service (RER or otherwise) would use?

No formal discussions AFAIK, but I would suspect that SmartTrack will simply become the 'local' RER service, serving Toronto and the inner 905, while GO RER will serve primarily the outer 905, with stops at key locations in Toronto. This would allow outer 905 residents to bypass local stations within the SmartTrack service zone (speeding trips up), and would allow Toronto residents to board trains that aren't already jam packed with 905ers.

They would likely run the same vehicles, just with a different route number on the front of them.

 

[ssiguy2]

Is Toronto going to be contributing any money for ST or is this another gift from Queen's Park?

 

[nfitz]

Is Toronto going to be contributing any money for ST or is this another gift from Queen's Park?

I think Queens Park has been clear that it is committing no money, beyond what it's already planned for the electrified RER service to existing stations.

So 100% Toronto for new stations, additional service, etc.