Should the megacity stay or be broken up?

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Should it stay? Or be broken up?

 

[steveintoronto]

Should it stay? Or be broken up?

The status quo is not producing the results necessary to address a lot of the present challenges.

 

[animatronic]

This is just nostalgia. If Toronto had grown up as a single entity, nobody in their right mind would propose breaking it up into 5.5 cities plus a regional municipality as a solution to the current problems.

 

[steveintoronto]

nobody in their right mind would propose breaking it up into 5.5 cities plus a regional municipality as a solution to the current problems.

And no-one is now. There is, however, a very good case for separating the core from the suburbs. If the burbs want to stay cohesive, power to them. They might be better off joining surrounding regions they have more in common with, but the issues that the old City of Toronto is faced with are being skewed by suburban interests. There never was a vote to amalgamate. It was a shotgun wedding from the start.

 

[Skeezix]

Toronto's entire history is one of annexations and amalgamations. The last amalgamation was one in a series - how far back back do we have to go to restore what was allegedly the perfect form of municipal government? Are the original 1834 boundaries back on the table? Because that's what I'm rooting for. This whole place has been ungovernable at least since Yorkville was annexed. We never would have had Rob Ford if Mimico and Riverdale were both still independent.

Don't we already have a thread where this dead horse is beaten? Again and again.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Toronto's entire history is one of annexations and amalgamations. The last amalgamation was one in a series - how far back back do we have to go to restore what was allegedly the perfect form of municipal government? Are the original 1834 boundaries back on the table? Because that's what I'm rooting for. This whole place has been ungovernable at least since Yorkville was annexed. We never would have had Rob Ford if Mimico and Riverdale were both still independent.

Don't we already have a thread where this dead horse is beaten? Again and again.

It's the 20th anniversary of this, that's why.

 

[steveintoronto]

Toronto's entire history is one of annexations and amalgamations.

So is almost every city.

The last amalgamation was one in a series - how far back back do we have to go to restore what was allegedly the perfect form of municipal government?

The one that's the topic of the present conversation: 1998.

Are the original 1834 boundaries back on the table?

Errr...no, although if you wish to make that case, no-one here is stopping you.

Don't we already have a thread where this dead horse is beaten? Again and again.

Hey, if it's such a boring topic, don't post. Is it your purpose to diss others' invites to conversation on a topic that interests them? And where exactly is this other thread on the topic? There's many threads been going for a decade at this site. Does that render them un-viable? If it does to you, then don't post there, or even read them for that matter.

Perhaps Skeezix could set the press straight on the matter too?

Google results for "toronto de-amalgamation"
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Search Results
Scarbexit? Scarborough resident calls for de-amalgamation Toronto Star
https://www.thestar.com › News › GTA
Nov 29, 2016 - Robert McDermott is fed up with city council and has launched a campaign to get Scarborough to de-amalgamate from Toronto. ... A disgruntled Scarborough resident is fed up with Toronto’s city council and is hoping a petition will help start the process of de-amalgamation.
De-amalgamation in Ontario: Is it the answer? | Fraser Institute
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/de-amalgamation-ontario-it-answer
We have seen the call for de-amalgamation emerge in many cities and towns across Ontario—including Toronto. Yet very rarely have we seen municipalities ...
Is it really possible to de-amalgamate Toronto? Fraser Institute says ...
news.nationalpost.com/toronto/is-it-really-possible-to-de-amagalmate-toronto-fraser-i...
Jul 7, 2015 - Canadian examples show that de-amalgamation can happen, but there can be unexpected costs and increased confusion in governance and ...
Amalgamation of Toronto - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgamation_of_Toronto
The amalgamation of Toronto was the creation of the current political borders of Toronto, ..... Toronto District School Board · Catholic District School Board · Conseil scolaire Viamonde · Conseil scolaire de district catholique Centre-Sud ...
Toronto (Amalgamated)‎: ‎(1998–present)
Town of York‎: ‎(1793–1834)
City of Toronto‎: ‎(1834–1954)
Metropolitan Toronto‎: ‎(1954–1998)
Scarborough real estate agent campaigns for de-amalgamation ...
www.metronews.ca/.../toronto/.../man-petitions-scarborough-to-separate-from-toronto...
Nov 22, 2016 - “To a larger extent we were already amalgamated before amalgamation,” he said, noting Metro Toronto was already spending about 77 per ...
Disgruntled Scarborough resident calls for de-amalgamation | Metro ...
www.metronews.ca/.../toronto/.../scarborough-resident-calls-for-de-amalgamation.htm...
Nov 29, 2016 - Robert McDermott is fed up with city council and has launched a campaign to get Scarborough to de-amalgamate from Toronto.
De Amalgamation - Huffington Post
www.huffingtonpost.ca/news/de-amalgamation/
Downtown Toronto NIMBYs have taken NIMBYism to a whole new level of intolerance verging on discrimination. Which I have dubbed SWAGism. SWAGs wish ...
Is municipal de-amalgamation the answer? | Financial Post
business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/is-municipal-de-amalgamation-the-answer
Jul 15, 2015 - If de-amalgamation were to be pursued in Toronto, the return of a two-tier structure would be the best option, but, of course, there'salways the ...
Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne: De-Amalgamate The City of Toronto
https://www.change.org/.../ontario-premier-kathleen-wynne-de-amalgamate-the-city-o...
Former Premier Mike Harris's experiment to amalgamate Metro Toronto and the surrounding municipalities into the City of Toronto ("megacity") has failed ...
Institute without Boundaries – The De-Amalgamation Debate
institutewithoutboundaries.ca/the-de-amalgamation-debate/
On Thursday April 16th, THE DE-AMALGAMATION DEBATE will examine the current state of Toronto, the Megacity, by challenging models for distributed ...

 

[picard102]

the issues that the old City of Toronto is faced with are being skewed by suburban interests.

Such as?

 

[steveintoronto]

Den:
Just getting some background reading in on this, and a study from the Fraser Institute (needless to say, well to the right) not only makes the point that the cause d'etre of Harris' amalgamation was never realized, in fact the opposite (savings through efficiency of delivery of services), the very thing that we discussed prior in another forum (fragmented transportation) resented itself in the Montreal model:

[...]
But Montreal is another story all together, and one that should make Torontonians think twice before thinking de-amalgamation is a panacea — just as Victoria should be cautious of its recent zeal for amalgamation.

“De-amalgamation does not necessarily mean a return to amalgamation boundaries,” the report notes. “De-amalgamation in Montreal has created a patchwork of governance within the region and blurred the lines of accountability.”

Why?

Because the Liberals under Jean Charest allowed communities to hold referendums on whether to separate from their merged cities. It created a weird municipal quilt in many corners of the province, but the shoddy work was more noticeable in Montreal.

The Island of Montreal went from 28 cities to one in 2002, then back to 15 in 2006. A new “Agglomeration” regional government was created to oversee the still-larger Montreal and its outlying boroughs.

“Servicing responsibility for the Island of Montreal is divided between the Agglomeration, the City of Montreal, and the boroughs,” the report notes. “The amalgamation and subsequent de-amalgamation of Montreal has led to a great deal of complexity in governance.”

To bring that back to the centre of the universe, what does the Montreal example mean for Toronto?

“Montreal has shown us that it is possible,” the report notes. However, “in certain cases, such as Toronto, de-amalgamation is possible but it’s like not desirable, mostly because such a decision would further complicate the region’s coordination challenges.”

Related
‘There were huge increases in costs — it really wasn’t well thought out,’ study slams forced city mergers

Transit between Toronto, Mississauga, Brampton, Newmarket, Markham and other area cities needs more coordination, not less, as just one example.

Miljan and her co-author Zachary Spicer aren’t making the case for a mega-Megacity (as has been floated) but for “pause when considering both amalgamation and de-amalgamation.”

The goal, they argue, is to find the right fit for the right area, one that is above all “embraced by citizens.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/toront...-institute-says-yes-but-doesnt-mean-it-should

Which brings me back to

If Toronto had grown up as a single entity, nobody in their right mind would propose breaking it up into 5.5 cities plus a regional municipality as a solution to the current problems.

I repeat, no-one is proposing that, but what has been discussed prior, and makes even more sense looking at how other developed nations with greater populations and densities have handled this, is to form a *super-region* that handles the transportation issues that transcend regions, let alone municipal borders.

Btw: The link for the report in the FP article is dead. Here is a live one, I'm reading the report now:
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/de-amalgamation-in-canada.pdf

Such as?

Transit issues to start. Expressway tolls, planning, services. I'll itemize further later, but the huge one right now is transit.

 

[christiesplits]

Maybe a partial de-amalgamation, similar to the Toronto community council structure:

Toronto + East York
Etobicoke + York
Scarborough
North York

 

[Skeezix]

Maybe a partial de-amalgamation, similar to the Toronto community council structure:

Toronto + East York
Etobicoke + York
Scarborough
North York

Why?

 

[Skeezix]

It's the 20th anniversary of this, that's why.

So?

 

[steveintoronto]

Maybe a partial de-amalgamation, similar to the Toronto community council structure:

Toronto + East York
Etobicoke + York
Scarborough
North York

Emphasis for deamalg is driven by the core, which would include the former cities of East York and York. I suspect due to influx of 'gentry' that Swansea would wish to remain in 'the core' due to political leanings on roads, bike lanes and transit, and services.

I'll dig out a map and previous voting patterns later. Must run.

 

[picard102]

Transit issues to start. Expressway tolls, planning, services. I'll itemize further later, but the huge one right now is transit.

What transit issues does Old Toronto face that is being stymied by the rest of Toronto?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So?

Why?

There was a news report and I just wanted to see were some members were on this.