Roads: Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration (City of Toronto, UC)

[howl]

I expect that a lot of drivers that currently uses Dundas will start to divert to other routes. I expect that people will use Burnanthorpe, Royal York and Islington as alternatives to get to/from the highway. Good for Dundas but very bad for the other more residential routes.

The traffic engineers will then pat themselves on the back telling all that these lights did not impact travel time (while drivers are stuck waiting for the lights on other routes).

The purpose of reconfiguring Six Points isn't to make traffic better. The purpose of reconfiguring Six Point is to unlock hundreds of millions of dollars in developable land that currently can't be effectively developed because of all the ramps and flyovers. You have to stop thinking about Six Points as a suburban highway interchange and start thinking about it as a new pedestrian-oreinted city centre (like North York City Centre, not Scarborough City Centre).

 

[crs1026]

The purpose of reconfiguring Six Points isn't to make traffic better. The purpose of reconfiguring Six Point is to unlock hundreds of millions of dollars in developable land that currently can't be effectively developed because of all the ramps and flyovers. You have to stop thinking about Six Points as a suburban highway interchange and start thinking about it as a new pedestrian-oreinted city centre (like North York City Centre, not Scarborough City Centre).

Well, actually, I'm thinking of it as a place where there is currently a very high traffic volume, and wondering where all those cars trucks and busses will go when the new roadways are built. Unlocking all that real estate isn't going to eliminate any of that traffic...and it won't be a pedestrian friendly zone if it's surrounded by gridlock.

- Paul

 

[howl]

Well, actually, I'm thinking of it as a place where there is currently a very high traffic volume, and wondering where all those cars trucks and busses will go when the new roadways are built. Unlocking all that real estate isn't going to eliminate any of that traffic...and it won't be a pedestrian friendly zone if it's surrounded by gridlock.

- Paul

Humm... maybe more people will have to use transit.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Well, actually, I'm thinking of it as a place where there is currently a very high traffic volume, and wondering where all those cars trucks and busses will go when the new roadways are built. Unlocking all that real estate isn't going to eliminate any of that traffic...and it won't be a pedestrian friendly zone if it's surrounded by gridlock.

- Paul

High traffic that does not even stop to shop or visit. The traffic basically now just goes through the intersection. Its not a "destination". Why would someone want to sit on a bench next to a ramp, if their even were benches?

 

[CDL.TO]

It's not as these streets are freeways on either side of Six Points. There are traffic lights and intersections in all directions and there isn't gridlock.

Although there won't be gridlock, areas with gridlock tend to be quite pedestrian friendly as the traffic is moving slowly and there's a lot less traffic noise. Think Queen West or so much of Manhattan.

 

[crs1026]

Humm... maybe more people will have to use transit.

Exactly. There is no "heavy transit" (subway, LRT, or streetcar, I'm not opening that debate) on the books for central Etobicoke for the next couple of decades anyways, and I'm OK with that. So that means that all of the added transit tied to Six Points development will be by bus.

Which is the heart of my concern.....will this redevelopment be bus-friendly? Or will the changes in roads just make it harder for busses to get through?

- Paul

 

[CapitalSeven]

Six Points is less than a quarter mile from Kipling.

 

[nfitz]

Six Points is less than a quarter mile from Kipling.

400 metres? There's an entrance to Kipling station at Kipling and St. Albans which is part of the six points interchange. It's only 200 metres from there to the bridge of Dundas over Kipling.

I suppose part of the interchange to the station is a quarter mile - but it's a quarter mile from one end of that travesty to the other!

 

[interchange42]

Exactly. There is no "heavy transit" (subway, LRT, or streetcar, I'm not opening that debate) on the books for central Etobicoke for the next couple of decades anyways, and I'm OK with that. So that means that all of the added transit tied to Six Points development will be by bus.

Which is the heart of my concern.....will this redevelopment be bus-friendly? Or will the changes in roads just make it harder for busses to get through?

- Paul

Eventually, far fewer buses will have to go through because they'll be terminating at Kipling instead of at Islington. I wish it were at a new stop at the East Mall/Highway 427, but the new bus terminal at Kipling will dramatically improve bus links to the TTC from the west.

42

 

[JasonParis]

Am I correct in remembering that the new Kipling terminal was put on hold (or delayed at least)?

 

[nfitz]

Am I correct in remembering that the new Kipling terminal was put on hold (or delayed at least)?

Given that the new terminal was a recommenday of Mayor Lastman's council, resulting in the "Kipling, Islington Bus Operation Study" completed in early 2004, which noted that "If a funding strategy was approved by all parties in 2005, it would take 3 – 4 years to design and construct the new Kipling facilities" then yes, I think you are remembering correctly.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Am I correct in remembering that the new Kipling terminal was put on hold (or delayed at least)?

There had been so many delays (even in relatively recent memory, the rA scheme which was sunk by Hydro One objections to the new redesign:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/mobilityhubs/mobility_hubs_Kipling.aspx

I think drum118 had been attending the meetings and he would be in a better position to update the status. I think the structural deterioration of the Islington terminal is the real impetus behind the relocation.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

Eventually, far fewer buses will have to go through because they'll be terminating at Kipling instead of at Islington. I wish it were at a new stop at the East Mall/Highway 427, but the new bus terminal at Kipling will dramatically improve bus links to the TTC from the west.

42

I wonder how the revenue from development charges for all the things planned for Dundas west of Kipling compares to the cost of extending the subway.

I wouldn't be opposed to a (much cheaper) busway from 427 to the new terminal at Kipling, along the north side of the CP ROW.

However, neither helps with bus traffic coming off Bloor or Burnhamthorpe from Mississauga. Perhaps a busway extension of Aukland, in the Hydro ROW north to Burnhamthorpe, would help out. Kipling is a good location for the terminal because it allows Miway routes to fan out from there, as opposed to all going along Dundas.

I also wonder how the cost of a subway extension compares to the cost of 2WAD on the GO line, at least as far as Cooksville or Erindale.

In short, there may be better ways to bring people east than extending the subway.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

I wonder how the revenue from development charges for all the things planned for Dundas west of Kipling compares to the cost of extending the subway.

I wouldn't be opposed to a (much cheaper) busway from 427 to the new terminal at Kipling, along the north side of the CP ROW.

However, neither helps with bus traffic coming off Bloor or Burnhamthorpe from Mississauga. Perhaps a busway extension of Aukland, in the Hydro ROW north to Burnhamthorpe, would help out. Kipling is a good location for the terminal because it allows Miway routes to fan out from there, as opposed to all going along Dundas.

I also wonder how the cost of a subway extension compares to the cost of 2WAD on the GO line, at least as far as Cooksville or Erindale.

In short, there may be better ways to bring people east than extending the subway.

- Paul

To make it more cheaper for transit systems as well faster for riders, extending the subway is the best option regardless of GO 2WAD service for the Milton Line. Unless you build a spur line to Sq One, not going to impact the Transitway ridership or other routes.

As for Kipling, Hydro One play hard ball for any type of terminal there to what is now plan. Not the best plan but it only good for 20 years at best. Its has been a terminal for a short life span.

Using the Hydro Corridor for anything is a dead issue now or anytime soon. I called for a transit corridor running up to Dixon Rd that would service MT BRT, getting TTC buses north faster and allowing BT and YRT to run buses to Kipling.

Islington is in rough shape. It will never see the office space that TTC has vision for it, but condos with some office space.

As for a Transitway beside CP/GO Corridor, not worth the money since Cloverdale (Honeydale) Subway Stop would do a better and cheaper way, given land is set aside for one now.

 

[CDL.TO]

Since Hydro One isn't playing ball, it seems to me that we should expect a loooooooong walk at Kipling from the new bus terminal to the subway platforms. Perhaps it'll be the west end's answer to the despised Kennedy transfer!