Roads: Scarlett Road / CP Rail Bridge EA

[smallspy]

So just turning at Jane? What other options might be considered?

Not turning, but at least connecting to. The only location that I can recall along that stretch of St Clair that would allow for turning back streetcars is right at Scarlett.

As for other options - no idea what the TTC has been looking at, to be honest.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[muller877]

Rebuilding the bridge, or extending the LRT?

Presently it does not make sense to extend it past Jane unless the line is continued beyond Scarlett (on Dundas St W). Of course there should be some provisioning for the future which should include an extra lane under the redesigned bridge.

Dundas W (Humber River to Royal York) has a bunch of new condos that will need additional transit service. The biggest will be a redevelopment of the Rona (which includes a lumber yard and is huge). Not needed now but should be provisioned for.

The Old Mill Car dealership is an ideal place for a train station and off-street placement of the Jane streetcar stop. There are about 10 live tracks over Jane and room on the bridge for about 20. Room for the terminus of the St Clair Streetcar plus a GO train stop. The dealer already sold their land on Bloor St (for condos) and I'm sure they would sell again if the price is right.

 

[drum118]

TTC has looked at turning cars at Scarlett Rd to connect to the Dundas line from Dundas West Station. Need to do a full EA now since all the existing tracks have been removed for Dundas. Will be a big fight for doing this.

They have looked at taking the line west to Kipling by Dundas, building a new bridge over the Humber to get to Islington in a straight line, take the line up Scarlett Rd to the airport, but only as vision. Getting to Scarlett is the first option.

Main goal was to cut down on the long trip to get 512 cars into/out of service by using Dundas.

When the Jane LRT surface, there was talks to interchange between the lines until the track gauge issue rose as well tunneling. Until then, it was thought the Eglinton yard would replace Roncesvalles yard. What was thought after the change of gauges roses was converting 512 to standard gauge when it came time to replace the tracks and switches. This would cut 512 100% from the existing system.

 

[crs1026]

Presently it does not make sense to extend it past Jane unless the line is continued beyond Scarlett (on Dundas St W).
Dundas W (Humber River to Royal York) has a bunch of new condos that will need additional transit service. The biggest will be a redevelopment of the Rona (which includes a lumber yard and is huge). Not needed now but should be provisioned for.

They have looked at taking the line west to Kipling by Dundas, building a new bridge over the Humber to get to Islington in a straight line, take the line up Scarlett Rd to the airport, but only as vision. Getting to Scarlett is the first option.

A link between central Etobicoke and St Clair would be very popular. The current bus routes through the area (71, 79, 40, 30) are pretty illogical and connect poorly.

If 512 only ran to Jane, where would it loop? Rather than build a short term loop at all, just continuing to Scarlet and looping on the south side would not be much more expensive. Then, if you combine the 30 and 40 busses, you have a more workable transfer to/from both the Junction area and the St Clair/Stockyards area.

As noted, development is occurring along Dundas west of the Humber. A streetcar alignment anywhere other than down Dundas itself would not serve this as well as just running it on street.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

A link between central Etobicoke and St Clair would be very popular. The current bus routes through the area (71, 79, 40, 30) are pretty illogical and connect poorly.

If 512 only ran to Jane, where would it loop? Rather than build a short term loop at all, just continuing to Scarlet and looping on the south side would not be much more expensive. Then, if you combine the 30 and 40 busses, you have a more workable transfer to/from both the Junction area and the St Clair/Stockyards area.

As noted, development is occurring along Dundas west of the Humber. A streetcar alignment anywhere other than down Dundas itself would not serve this as well as just running it on street.

- Paul

I would not loop at Jane, but at Scarlett Rd on the west side and it would fix some bus routes and service issues.

As for Dundas, it will be a mix of ROW and mix running due to the narrowness of the street. Then you have the issue at Kipling as where do you have a loop since Hydro One Kill the idea of an LRT for Mississauga there already.

As for a bridge and going straight to Islington is based on an idea of taking the line north on Islington. In someway following the old urban line route.

 

[muller877]

A link between central Etobicoke and St Clair would be very popular. The current bus routes through the area (71, 79, 40, 30) are pretty illogical and connect poorly.

If 512 only ran to Jane, where would it loop? Rather than build a short term loop at all, just continuing to Scarlet and looping on the south side would not be much more expensive. Then, if you combine the 30 and 40 busses, you have a more workable transfer to/from both the Junction area and the St Clair/Stockyards area.

As noted, development is occurring along Dundas west of the Humber. A streetcar alignment anywhere other than down Dundas itself would not serve this as well as just running it on street.

- Paul

there is no room at St Clair and Scarlett on the south side. The road is about 10 feet from the tracks. On the west side there is a building. The only room is to take over a parkette on the NE side and even then I'm not sure if there is room with the longer trains.

At Jane there is room if you ran the streetcar on the old train bridge (and you bought the Old Mill dealership as part of a train station plan) Basically looping around where the dealership is now and using the dealership as a transit node/train station. And building stairs down to both sides of Jane to allow for bus/Jane LRT connections.

It also gets rid of the hill at Jane which may slow down the streetcar AND eliminates extending the light at Jane/St Clair which already slows down the Jane Bus

When/if the streetcar is extended it would run on the south side of St Clair (off street) from here to Scarlett. (would need a retaining wall for the train tracks and the elimination of 1 lane of traffic....St Clair is not that busy here and you only need 3 lanes of traffic other than at Jane you need 4. At Scarlett it would need to jog onto Dundas.

But even on Dundas Westbound I would not have it in the centre of the street. There is only 1 minor street running north off of Dundas all the way to Royal York (and Howland is just a fancy road to get to the arena). So the jog at the Scarlett bridge would make it run on the North side of Dundas. That is of course contingent on making sure the Humber Bridge can handle it...it was designed for streetcars in a different time.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The recommendation in the Environment Study, from this link, and you can download the report from this link, is to accommodate streetcar service in shared lanes. However, should exclusive right-of-way be implemented in the future on the Dundas Street West and St. Clair Avenue West approaches, access through the bridge can be enhanced through use of transit priority signals.

Horizontal and vertical clearances designed to accommodate potential future streetcar service in exclusive lanes

 

[drum118]

TTC has said any loop would be on the west side of Scarlett Rd and that would requiring buying property. They prefer this location over a Jane St or Runnymede loop, even thought Runnymede has been setup for one.

Having 512 run on the south side would work, but will have an impact on the development plan for CP Land. You have to be at grade before you hit Scarlett Rd to use the underpass and a elevated will have the same effect as the current hill.

 

[Toffy]

That is of course contingent on making sure the Humber Bridge can handle it...it was designed for streetcars in a different time.

The bridge carrying Dundas over the Humber was rebuilt new in 2009, the only remnant from the former bridge is the river it crosses.

 

[W. K. Lis]

FINALLY! An update:

From link:

Scarlett Road Bridge

Scarlett Road Bridge project


In 2008, the City completed a study to address the safety and traffic operations in the area around the Scarlett Road Bridge. The study recommended making changes to the bridge and surroundings roads in order to improve the road capacity and reduce congestion.

The bridge and road improvements include:

• Replacement of the railway bridge above Scarlett Rd and the addition of one northbound lane and one southbound lane under the bridge for a total of two lanes in each direction.
• Lowering of Scarlett Rd to allow large vehicles and trucks to pass underneath the bridge.
• Improved sidewalks under the bridge and at the intersections at Scarlett Rd and Dundas St West and Scarlett Rd and St. Clair Ave.
• Addition of second northbound left turn lane on Dundas St W and future bike lanes added on both sides of Dundas St W.
• New southbound left-turn lane from Scarlett Rd to Dundas Street W.
• New traffic control signal at Gooch Ave and Dundas Street W and new left-turn lane from Dundas St W to Gooch Ave.
• Road widening for future dedicated bike lanes on Dundas St. and Scarlett Rd.
• New landscaping and public art.
• The City is now moving forward with approved plans to reconstruct the bridge and reconfigure the intersection. Construction is scheduled to begin in 2018 and is expected to last approximately 3 years.

November 2017


Scarlett Road Bridge Public Meeting #1

DATE: Tuesday November 28th

TIME: 6:30 – 8:30 p.m. – presentation at 7:00 p.m.


PLACE: Lambton Park Community School Gymnasium
50 Berniuce Crescent, York ON M6N 1W9

This venue is wheelchair accessible​

 

[Towered]

No mention of extending the 512 ROW through here as has often been floated in the past. Typical.

 

[crs1026]

Yeah, I'm nitpicking, but.....funny to see the renderings with 20-years-out-of-date CP Rail logos.

I suspect Canadian Pacific might want those updated.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

From the Environmental Study Report dated August, 2007 (see link):

I guess we'll see if things got altered over the ten years since the EA. Don't like the "subject to further EA approvals".

 

[TransitBart]

No mention of extending the 512 ROW through here as has often been floated in the past. Typical.

Where is the 512 ROW going in your view? Along Dundas?

 

[W. K. Lis]

I would have to assume mixed traffic streetcars using an on-street loop via Jane Street, Dundas Street West, Scarlett Road. and St. Clair Avenue West. If the underpass at Jane Street is high enough for the streetcars, though new construction work would have to done with the Jane Street underpass flooding that occasionally occurs there.

However, they could widen the roads closer to the railroad.

The recommended design from the ESR. Hopefully, the presentation will have a better representation.