Toronto Queens Quay & Water's Edge Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

the lemur said:
I'm not sure what's unsafe about a traffic signal with a sign next to it reading LEFT TURN SIGNAL that displays a red light when you are not permitted to turn left. Where's the design failure in that? The driving error lies with the driver alone - there is nothing in the design that leads the driver to believe, erroneously, that a left turn is safe or permitted in the red light phase. Unless we have a new 'left turn on red' law that I'm unaware of.
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If the same accident keeps happening again, and again, then it's a design failure and unsafe. Even if the experts can't see what is wrong with it! The law doesn't matter. A competent engineer must (by law) design with safety in mind, irregardless of the traffic laws.
 
nfitz said:
If the same accident keeps happening again, and again, then it's a design failure and unsafe. Even if the experts can't see what is wrong with it! The law doesn't matter. A competent engineer must (by law) design with safety in mind, irregardless of the traffic laws.
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Agreed. Why didn't they take Murphy's Law into account, essentially that if we make it easy to do both the right and wrong way, the wrong way will be chosen. If you want cars to stay off the ROW, then make it realistically impossible for them to do so, with bollards for example.
 
nfitz said:
If the same accident keeps happening again, and again, then it's a design failure and unsafe. Even if the experts can't see what is wrong with it! The law doesn't matter. A competent engineer must (by law) design with safety in mind, irregardless of the traffic laws.
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What's the design failure/flaw? Is there something that suggests to drivers that they can make a left on red? Is the cycle too short? Visibility? How is it different from other intersections where drivers can make a left across a streetcar ROW with a dedicated traffic signal and a transit signal?

Is there a safe way of making the turn? Do other drivers do it that way?
 
Admiral Beez said:
Agreed. Why didn't they take Murphy's Law into account, essentially that if we make it easy to do both the right and wrong way, the wrong way will be chosen. If you want cars to stay off the ROW, then make it realistically impossible for them to do so, with bollards for example.
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Except that the situation in this most recent collision, and in several others, involves a driver making a (permitted) left across the ROW in order to use an entrance ... BUT choosing to do so when the light indicates that they must not proceed. As PinkLucy said, that's stupidity, not design.

Other collisions might occur with drivers turning onto the ROW instead of into the correct traffic lane, where a driver is initially travelling on a street that ends in a T-junction with QQW (such as Spadina). In that situation, since no-entry signs don't appear to be enough, I would support bollards that obstruct enough of the gap in the ROW to indicate that it is not open to drivers.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Agreed. Why didn't they take Murphy's Law into account, essentially that if we make it easy to do both the right and wrong way, the wrong way will be chosen. If you want cars to stay off the ROW, then make it realistically impossible for them to do so, with bollards for example.
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Except we're talking about turning left on a red, not about driving on the ROW (which is a whole 'nother issue)
 
the lemur said:
What's the design failure/flaw? Is there something that suggests to drivers that they can make a left on red? Is the cycle too short? Visibility? How is it different from other intersections where drivers can make a left across a streetcar ROW with a dedicated traffic signal and a transit signal?
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Good questions. It's clear that there is one, from the number of accidents. Simple addition of bollards eliminated many of the problems on Fleet.

A qualified expert would have to opine.
 
the lemur said:
Except that the situation in this most recent collision, and in several others, involves a driver making a (permitted) left across the ROW in order to use an entrance ... BUT choosing to do so when the light indicates that they must not proceed. As PinkLucy said, that's stupidity, not design.
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If you're crossing a railway, why not, where proven necessary by agreed stupid folks, make it impossible to do so. Old school example below with arms.

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nfitz said:
Good questions. It's clear that there is one, from the number of accidents. Simple addition of bollards eliminated many of the problems on Fleet.

A qualified expert would have to opine.
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We're talking about two different things. The latest accident (and many of the others) were caused by people turning left on a red. That's driver error, not design.

Bollards are a possible solution for the ROW issues, but in most cases they would need to be retractable. I've seen them used in other applications in Europe and I think in the US, and to my non-engineering brain, they could be a possible solution here.
 
PinkLucy said:
We're talking about two different things. The latest accident (and many of the others) were caused by people turning left on a red. That's driver error, not design.
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Not sure what the other issue is ...

If there's an occasional car turning left on red, then sure ... but cars are very frequently being reported doing it. So frequently that some are hitting vehicles!

Bollards would work fine ... you eliminate the left turn completely. Anyone wishing to turn there, would have to turn right from the other direction.
 
Bollards would have to be retractable or emergency services would say it could impede them. If you eliminate the left turn, people will start u-turning, probably up and over the ROW, because that's the kind of driving people in this city do. So you'd need to have bollards all along the length of the ROW, and wouldn't that be attractive? (And that's why bollards were installed at Fleet and Stadium, because of the u-turns up and over the ROW using the pedestrian crossing)

Perhaps, as was suggested above, TPS could actually start fining drivers who turn left on reds and ignore the thousand and one signs that are posted all over down there.
 
PinkLucy said:
Bollards would have to be retractable or emergency services would say it could impede them.
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Just use the ones already used on the ROW on Bathurst, south of Lake Shore. You can drive over them.

PinkLucy said:
Perhaps, as was suggested above, TPS could actually start fining drivers who turn left on reds and ignore the thousand and one signs that are posted all over down there.
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I don't think most of these accidents would be eliminated by better enforcement. There needs to be a design change. Those consciously breaking the law, are likely paying attention, and not the ones getting hit by streetcars!
 
the lemur said:
I'm not sure what's unsafe about a traffic signal with a sign next to it reading LEFT TURN SIGNAL that displays a red light when you are not permitted to turn left. Where's the design failure in that? The driving error lies with the driver alone - there is nothing in the design that leads the driver to believe, erroneously, that a left turn is safe or permitted in the red light phase. Unless we have a new 'left turn on red' law that I'm unaware of.
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From the Ontario Driver's Handbook, at this link:

Left turn on a red light

You may turn left from a one-way road to a one-way road on a red light after coming to a complete stop and making sure the way is clear. Yield to pedestrians and traffic.
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nfitz said:
Not sure what the other issue is ...

If there's an occasional car turning left on red, then sure ... but cars are very frequently being reported doing it. So frequently that some are hitting vehicles!

Bollards would work fine ... you eliminate the left turn completely. Anyone wishing to turn there, would have to turn right from the other direction.
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The frequent lefts on red - resulting in some cases in car/streetcar collisions - are caused by drivers ignoring a) the red light, which implicitly rules out a left turn, and b) the sign beside the traffic light reading LEFT TURN SIGNAL. Are they not seeing it? Are they looking somewhere else? Or just deciding that they can make it at a given time?

The 'left turn into streetcar' scenario happened a few times when the Spadina ROW was reopened and streetcar service returned to that street. It was resolved by labelling the transit signals as such. Are drivers on QQW looking at the transit signals instead?
 
the lemur said:
Okay, but a left from a street like QQW, even where one direction of travel is separated from the other by the ROW, into a one-way entrance, is not one-way to one-way.
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Correct. There are VERY few places this is legal in Toronto. Examples I know of: York to Wellington, York to Richmond, Richmond to Simcoe, Adelaide to York, Lake Shore Blvd W at British Columbia Rd (eastbound to westbound u-turn is technically one-way road to one-way road here as the turning lanes are technically on British Columbia not Lake Shore iirc).

Absolutely nowhere on Queen's Quay is it even remotely legal to make a left turn on a red light.
 
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