Questions regarding "transit cabotage" and routes post subway extension

[mistersg1]

I have a few questions on a few things, the first topic relates to what I call "cabotage" and it will become important regarding to how routes will operate when the subway extension opens.

The main assumption here, is that using the TTC in the two Vaughan subway stops will not cost an extra fare, IS THIS THE CASE?

When YRT routes enter the City of Toronto's boundaries (and for that record Brampton Zum Steeles) are these non TTC systems allowed to transport someone between TWO POINTS within the City of Toronto (essentially alluding to municipal "cabotage")

MiWay says clearly on their website that they do not participate in cabotage, by stating that they DO NOT DROP OFF passengers while in Toronto on their way TO Mississauga, and that they DO NOT PICK UP passengers in Toronto on their way FROM Mississauga.

TTC operates as a YRT bus north of Steeles by demanding the YRT fare, similarly, does YRT participate in cabotage south of York. For instance, could you board a YRT 99 south of Steeles and get off at say Homewood?



This fare boundary creates a strange situation when the subway opens. How would Brampton/YRT routes work with the new subway stations? Obviously, no one wants to pay two fares from York or Brampton to reach York University, so does the Zum Queen still operate to York U (and possibly stop at the new Vaughan and Hwy 407 stops)? Or will Brampton residents now have to pay two fares assuming the Zum connection to York U is eliminated.

Similarly, how do the GO routes which utilize Hwy 407 use this new system, is it business as usual with GO buses going to York U and Highway 407 Station.(meaning a lengthy detour if one is taking the Hwy 407 bus still) Or do they only stop at Highway 407 Station.

With our fare structures, it makes the purpose of Highway 407 station kind of pointless as a GO Transit hub when you factor in the York U factor.

This is just a rant and I'm wondering if anyone knows how the routes will change when the subway opens.

 

[narduch]

All this means is that Metrolinx has failed at implementing a meaningful fare integration for the start of the subway extension.

 

[Rainforest]

I have a few questions on a few things, the first topic relates to what I call "cabotage" and it will become important regarding to how routes will operate when the subway extension opens.

The main assumption here, is that using the TTC in the two Vaughan subway stops will not cost an extra fare, IS THIS THE CASE?

Yes. Using subway only = standard TTC fare.

When YRT routes enter the City of Toronto's boundaries (and for that record Brampton Zum Steeles) are these non TTC systems allowed to transport someone between TWO POINTS within the City of Toronto (essentially alluding to municipal "cabotage")

Generally, no.

There are a few exceptions: 1) For the last few years, TTC customers with a valid Metropass or TTC transfer can travel on Viva Orange between the Downsview station and York University. 2) YRT stops located on Steeles avenue are in a grey area, as it is impossible to know if the rider comes from the Toronto side or York side; therefore, one can take YRT routes such as 88, 23, 91 between the Finch station and any stop on Steeles.

MiWay says clearly on their website that they do not participate in cabotage, by stating that they DO NOT DROP OFF passengers while in Toronto on their way TO Mississauga, and that they DO NOT PICK UP passengers in Toronto on their way FROM Mississauga.

TTC operates as a YRT bus north of Steeles by demanding the YRT fare, similarly, does YRT participate in cabotage south of York. For instance, could you board a YRT 99 south of Steeles and get off at say Homewood?

No. The driver will not let you in.

This fare boundary creates a strange situation when the subway opens. How would Brampton/YRT routes work with the new subway stations? Obviously, no one wants to pay two fares from York or Brampton to reach York University, so does the Zum Queen still operate to York U (and possibly stop at the new Vaughan and Hwy 407 stops)? Or will Brampton residents now have to pay two fares assuming the Zum connection to York U is eliminated.

Similarly, how do the GO routes which utilize Hwy 407 use this new system, is it business as usual with GO buses going to York U and Highway 407 Station.(meaning a lengthy detour if one is taking the Hwy 407 bus still) Or do they only stop at Highway 407 Station.

With our fare structures, it makes the purpose of Highway 407 station kind of pointless as a GO Transit hub when you factor in the York U factor.

This is just a rant and I'm wondering if anyone knows how the routes will change when the subway opens.

The provisional YRT route map post-extension has been posted on the "TYSSE: Spadina Subway Extension" thread.

All buses (YRT and TTC) will be removed from the York U's Commons loop, but quite a few YRT routes will have stops on Steeles, Ian MacDonald Blvd etc, within walking distance from the York U buildings. Therefore, YRT riders will be able to avoid double fare to get to York U, but at a cost fo transferring to another YRT bus.

Not sure about Zum, heard that they haven't finalized their routing plan. As of GO buses, to my knowledge none of them will serve York U directly.

 

[mistersg1]

Forgive me for asking, I can't seem to find information, but what will the York U Commons Loop be used for then? I don't know about you, but all this seems very poorly executed.

 

[Young Stats]

All this means is that Metrolinx has failed at implementing a meaningful fare integration for the start of the subway extension.

It will be even worse if Metrolinx start implementing fare zones or pure fare-by distance in regards to "fare integration"

 

[Young Stats]

I have a feeling that there's going to be a point where the post-subway extension (VMC to Pioneer Village) will likely to have a similar situation as the UPX when ridership was very low

 

[Euphoria]

This is why some form of fare integration is inevitable. If fares become distance based, such that the different city names on buses become meaningless apart from reminding riders where they are commuting and reinforcing local identity, then any bus can pick up at these border stops. For that to happen, basic fares must be the same throughout the GTA. To operate this system in the fairest possible way requires identical card terminals throughout the system that can calculate fares for destinations. Regular commuters will figure out how much payment to load on their cards. Keep in mind there will likely be a premium for RER, except perhaps for the Smart Track segment, which was promised to be fared like subway.

 

[mistersg1]

It's really only TTC territory where we have these kind of border issues, sure between Brampton and MiWay, there aren't really any routes that go deep into Mississauga except express routes, and these borders disconnect some of the routes. However, the main difference between everyone else and TTC is that nearly all the other systems accepts each other transfers, and there isn't any kind of this silly "cabotage" like restriction within Brampton/Mississauga. For instance, the Zum Hurontario operates well south of the hydro corridor which forms most of the Brampton/Mississauga boundary.

Brampton Transit openly says on their website that they will accept transfers from HSR and DRT, although how you could get into Brampton's system within a 2 hour time frame from either system doesn't seem possible, unless you use GO for part of the trip.

 

[jys]

I have a few questions on a few things, the first topic relates to what I call "cabotage" and it will become important regarding to how routes will operate when the subway extension opens.

The main assumption here, is that using the TTC in the two Vaughan subway stops will not cost an extra fare, IS THIS THE CASE?

I don't think so. If you board at York U and transfer to a GO or YRT bus then of course you can skip the TTC fare.

Yes. Using subway only = standard TTC fare.

All buses (YRT and TTC) will be removed from the York U's Commons loop, but quite a few YRT routes will have stops on Steeles, Ian MacDonald Blvd etc, within walking distance from the York U buildings. Therefore, YRT riders will be able to avoid double fare to get to York U, but at a cost fo transferring to another YRT bus.

I thought someone in the TYSSE thread mentioned that YRT and GO Transit worked out a plan with TTC so that their riders can get on at a station north of 407 and get off at York U station without extra charge. To do that, TTC is installing tap in and tap out gates for the stations on the TYSSE.

 

[mistersg1]

But do we know for sure if the TTC is seriously considering exit gates? If that's the case, practically every stop would have to have exit gates, as how would you know if someone who boards at Highway 407 who goes to Dundas station and doesn't tap off ever. Or does the tap off essentially "cancel" the TTC fare assuming one exits at Pioneer Village or York U station.

Your idea sounds intriguing, but what happens if someone comes into 407 Station by GO Transit and wants to head north in York Region, i'm not sure how well 407 will be served by YRT buses, but does one skip the TTC fare if they get on at 407 and head to Vaughan station and board a bus northbound to say Weston and Rutherford.

 

[Euphoria]

The tap off is inevitable for all stations and systems, such that the the final charge is adjusted when you exit the final station or at the final stop on your journey. You don't even need to swipe or tap out. You just pass through a threshold like a runner at the finish line. The card is a chip. As long as you can periodically check the credits on your card and the cost of a trip, and load your card accordingly, you're good to go.

 

[Young Stats]

It's really only TTC territory where we have these kind of border issues, sure between Brampton and MiWay, there aren't really any routes that go deep into Mississauga except express routes, and these borders disconnect some of the routes. However, the main difference between everyone else and TTC is that nearly all the other systems accepts each other transfers, and there isn't any kind of this silly "cabotage" like restriction within Brampton/Mississauga. For instance, the Zum Hurontario operates well south of the hydro corridor which forms most of the Brampton/Mississauga boundary.

Brampton Transit openly says on their website that they will accept transfers from HSR and DRT, although how you could get into Brampton's system within a 2 hour time frame from either system doesn't seem possible, unless you use GO for part of the trip.

IMO, I think that either a merger between the transit systems in the GTHA or the elimination of fares (100% subsidized) will solve the cross-boundary issues and providing routes more efficiently.

 

[kEiThZ]

IMO, I think that either a merger between the transit systems in the GTHA or the elimination of fares (100% subsidized) will solve the cross-boundary issues and providing routes more efficiently.

It's an idea that's always good in theory, not practice. A huge problem is the difference in transit support between different municipalities. Toronto supports transit at levels unthinkable in the 905.

On the other hand, I can actually support for a real regional transit authority that manages transit across the whole region and imposes its own taxes to fund it. But could that ever happen in the GTA's political environment? The 905 would not trust Toronto. And the 416 wouldn't trust the 905 to not manipulate the agenda.

 

[Megaton327]

But do we know for sure if the TTC is seriously considering exit gates? If that's the case, practically every stop would have to have exit gates, as how would you know if someone who boards at Highway 407 who goes to Dundas station and doesn't tap off ever. Or does the tap off essentially "cancel" the TTC fare assuming one exits at Pioneer Village or York U station.

Your idea sounds intriguing, but what happens if someone comes into 407 Station by GO Transit and wants to head north in York Region, i'm not sure how well 407 will be served by YRT buses, but does one skip the TTC fare if they get on at 407 and head to Vaughan station and board a bus northbound to say Weston and Rutherford.

Tap off can provide a refund for the otherwise-double fare. No need to have it at every station in the system. If you board at VMC and don't tap off, you pay the full fare. If you take a GO Bus to 407, tap on, then tap off at York U, you don't pay any extra TTC fare over your existing GO fare. If you tap on at York U, tap off at Downsview Park, and tap on to a GO Train, you don't pay a TTC fare.

Some of these details are in flux and need to be confirmed closer to TYSSE opening.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Tap off can provide a refund for the otherwise-double fare. No need to have it at every station in the system. If you board at VMC and don't tap off, you pay the full fare. If you take a GO Bus to 407, tap on, then tap off at York U, you don't pay any extra TTC fare over your existing GO fare. If you tap on at York U, tap off at Downsview Park, and tap on to a GO Train, you don't pay a TTC fare.

Some of these details are in flux and need to be confirmed closer to TYSSE opening.

Since only Presto will be accepted at the new stations, would everyone have to tap off to get out of the station? Let's say someone from Eglinton West (Cedarvale) goes to York University, and doesn't use Presto to enter the subway, how would they exit the station? Are there fare gates just for exiting that open automatically? Of course, when fare gates are installed in every entrance and exit of the system (can serve as both) tapping on and off wouldn't be a problem, but what about now?