Brampton Mount Pleasant Heights | ?m | 14s | Argo Developments

I have already lost track of why this project is offensive to people. Is it because its a mall? or is it because it is a mall in a place where people have to drive to it?

The second part describes Brampton, unfortunately, so are we saying that Brampton should not have malls? Wouldn't that just mean that 500,000 people have to drive to Mississauga/Vaughan/Toronto to shop? So what does that do?
 
It's the driving

I confess...I'm going to go back and read through the posts right after I send this, but just to answer (for me) what the problem with malls is...

...one of the biggest problem with 'malls' - as they are 'typically' designed - is that they consume vast amounts of land (for both the building itself AND parking), development around them is usually low-density, they are designed around the automobile which means you pretty much have to drive to them to get there, they are 'in most cases' dominated by corporate chains, and they are ugly inward looking boxes that contribute nothing to the surrounding area in terms of creating any sense of urbanity whatsoever.

There's more, but this is good for now... ;)
 
Notwithstanding the debate about the location, what's interesting about this concept is that it relies on parking structures rather than surface lots and that it's designed to be the first phase of a larger mixed-use urban neighbourhood.

I think this will put a fire under RioCan to re-assess their Shoppers World site. If they proposed something like this at that location they could steal most of Osmington's thunder.
 
Danielinthecity said:
I confess...I'm going to go back and read through the posts right after I send this, but just to answer (for me) what the problem with malls is...

...one of the biggest problem with 'malls' - as they are 'typically' designed - is that they consume vast amounts of land (for both the building itself AND parking), development around them is usually low-density, they are designed around the automobile which means you pretty much have to drive to them to get there, they are 'in most cases' dominated by corporate chains, and they are ugly inward looking boxes that contribute nothing to the surrounding area in terms of creating any sense of urbanity whatsoever.

There's more, but this is good for now... ;)
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I think other than the need for cars to get there....a cursory review of this particular plan would seem to suggest it is looking at land use different from the typical mall.......It has some interesting design elements, is meant to be surrounded by high(er) density (at least compared to Brampton as a whole) and (if developed according to the plans) would be far more urban than any of the surrounding areas.

The car is evil, yes, but all malls (from Yorkdale to SQ1 to the Eaton Centre) require cars and accomodation for cars.
 
TOareaFan said:
I think other than the need for cars to get there....a cursory review of this particular plan would seem to suggest it is looking at land use different from the typical mall.......It has some interesting design elements, is meant to be surrounded by high(er) density (at least compared to Brampton as a whole) and (if developed according to the plans) would be far more urban than any of the surrounding areas.

The car is evil, yes, but all malls (from Yorkdale to SQ1 to the Eaton Centre) require cars and accomodation for cars.
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Yup...hopefully that's the case and those more urban design elements will be realized. I do think it's possible to incorporate a mall into the urban fabric if it's done the right way. The parking/cars issue, though...that's one where I must respectfully disagree. I think that the only reason malls currently require lots of parking and cars is b/c of a lack of 'good' transit along with 'good' design (that we've already spoken of). IF these elements existed, then I think we could have malls without huge parking lots. The problem is that until we reach such a critical mass where 'most' people actually 'choose' to take transit, then the car/parking will still be a necessity unfortunately. So actually, maybe in a way I'm not disagreeing b/c at this present time we 'DONT' have those things I just mentioned so in the 'meantime', I guess we'll have to continue to accomodate those customers who'll only get there via the car.
 
^1 word - Yorkdale!

A major mall with its own subway station and, yet, one of the largest/busiest parking lots in the GTA.

It is great that we have a few examples of transit accessible malls (Yorkdale, Eaton Centre, STC) but they still get huge numbers of people driving to them...they always will...all you/we can hope for is small gains.
 
Just what Brampton needs......another mall (insert sarcasm here). I've lived here most of my life, and I've seen the downtown area fall flat on it's face in favour of large retail big box outlets. The Queen street corridor is full of empty lots, abandoned car dealerships. Shoppers World has become the dive of the community, and Kennedy Road is a disgrace! I wish that somebody would give their heads a shake, and focus on redevelopment of what we already have, before building yet another big box traffic nightmare.
 
gregr92 said:
Just what Brampton needs......another mall (insert sarcasm here). I've lived here most of my life, and I've seen the downtown area fall flat on it's face in favour of large retail big box outlets. The Queen street corridor is full of empty lots, abandoned car dealerships. Shoppers World has become the dive of the community, and Kennedy Road is a disgrace! I wish that somebody would give their heads a shake, and focus on redevelopment of what we already have, before building yet another big box traffic nightmare.
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At some point, though, you have to accept that the market is speaking. When did the city first develop its Queen Street corridor plan? is it 15 or 20 years ago? Offering developers/property owners tax incentives, zoning flexibility, speedy approvals...etc. How much development along Queen (particularly in the key stretch between the BCC and Kennedy) has taken place? Sure some car dealerships have closed but is that empty lot where Robertson's Plymouth/Dodge used to be so much more attractive than the dealership it replaced. Is the new Volkswagen dealership an improvement on the old one (as a dealership yes but as a land use....neutral)....sure the Days Inn may be less offensive to the morality than the Shield and Sword but they are both low density, walk up motels at the end of the day.

The market is telling the city that there is no demand for offices or condos on that stretch of Queen......they are also telling the city that there is no cry/call for retail in the downtown......it is and will be a niche (likely a slightly growing niche with the new condos there being occupied but a niche none the less).

So, now, how do you deal with the shopping/retail/commercial needs of the quickly growing community in NW Brampton? Tell them "no malls, drive to other regional malls?" How do you convince the OMB that it is the right thing to block any commercial/retail uses?

Or do you encourage a more modern view of the mall with parking structures (rather than lots) and a plan that includes more dense residential and complimentary office and commercial land use.........sorta like this one proposed.
 
Is the market speaking, or is it simply that the city has allowed the main streets to go downhill, in favour of outward growth. You make some valid points, but I would like to see some major investment and redevelopment on the main strips, so those people don't necessarily always have to hop in their cars to run to the outskirts.
 
gregr92 said:
Is the market speaking, or is it simply that the city has allowed the main streets to go downhill, in favour of outward growth. You make some valid points, but I would like to see some major investment and redevelopment on the main strips, so those people don't necessarily always have to hop in their cars to run to the outskirts.
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What kind of investment are you looking for? Which streets?
 
gregr92 said:
Anything would be better along Queen Street than a bunch of empty lots and empty stores.
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That is precisely the point..........the city encouraged car lots to close/move......once they did, the hope was that the dealerships would be replaced by condos or offices......of course there is no market demand for that so every time someone tries to build something anywhere else in Brampton we get cals of "not that there.......that belongs on Queen St".

I think thé biggest problem in Brampton is that, at some time, we all drank the "Queen St. Corridor" Kool Aid.....and when developers look at city they say "why and what would I build there"
 
Sorry, I missed this project until now. Enviro's exactly right. Regional malls are one of the biggest trip generators in a city and they make outstanding transit hubs. So many of them were built close, but not close enough, to existing rail corridors (STC, Square One). I cannot fathom why we are still making this mistake. For people who say that they are building it here rather than there because they own the land, the city should tell them tough. Better yet, they should have established the planning principle earlier that major projects like a large office park or regional mall must be built adjacent to a rail corridor. That's the bare minimum we should ask if we want transit-oriented suburbs.
 
TOareaFan said:
^1 word - Yorkdale!

A major mall with its own subway station and, yet, one of the largest/busiest parking lots in the GTA.

It is great that we have a few examples of transit accessible malls (Yorkdale, Eaton Centre, STC) but they still get huge numbers of people driving to them...they always will...all you/we can hope for is small gains.
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I don't know a lot of people who would go to Yorkdale from downtown Toronto. Yorkdale is pretty much only accessible from the South using transit, and the vast majority of its shoppers come from east, west, and north.

I don't understand the sorts of seemingly sick people who would rather have a mall than streets. I bet they all go on vacation to Europe and admire it for its history and culture, too.
 
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