Premier Kathleen Wynne and What Her Election Means for Transit

[Catenary]

For Kathleen, the transit improvements have to include the GTA and all urban areas (Waterloo, Ottawa, North Bay, etc.), and not just Toronto, in her campaign or government session.

Yes they do, since people around the province aren't going to be happy watching "their tax dollars" all apparently being funneled towards the GTA. Since you used North Bay as an examples and I know that city well, I will say that residents were and are not happy that the Northlander was cancelled, with direct comparisons drawn to how the province supports GO. Local transit there doesn't require major capital since they've planned for that (Metrolinx Transit Purchasing CO-OP means 2 new buses a year until the fleet is entirely low floor in 2014) but the system can barely remain afloat and there is no money for any extras like Bike Racks which would help ridership or the installation of an ASA system which I believe is required at some point. A source of steady provincial funding beyond the gas tax is what cities like North Bay are looking for.

 

[sixrings]

Yes they do, since people around the province aren't going to be happy watching "their tax dollars" all apparently being funneled towards the GTA. Since you used North Bay as an examples and I know that city well, I will say that residents were and are not happy that the Northlander was cancelled, with direct comparisons drawn to how the province supports GO. Local transit there doesn't require major capital since they've planned for that (Metrolinx Transit Purchasing CO-OP means 2 new buses a year until the fleet is entirely low floor in 2014) but the system can barely remain afloat and there is no money for any extras like Bike Racks which would help ridership or the installation of an ASA system which I believe is required at some point. A source of steady provincial funding beyond the gas tax is what cities like North Bay are looking for.

as long as the tolls and gas taxes start in cities which have a all day go train option then I don't see what the problem is. I cant see a province wide gas tax that would have Ottawa drivers or timmins drivers paying for GTA transit. Rather it will be GTA tolls and GTA gas tax that will be paid for by GTA drivers.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think one of the best ways to remove the sting of these new revenue tools would be to announce all-day two-way service on pretty much every line, and 30 min service on the Lakeshore lines. It would be a huge step, but you need a gesture of good faith if people are going to swallow these taxes or fees. These types of service boots would be mostly operating costs, with relatively little capital involved in them (especially compared to projects like the DRL).

PS: 4,000 posts. Holy crap, I spend way too much time on here...

All-day two-way GO has been announced, it just isn't a cheap operating cost-only thing. It's going to cost $4.9 billion in capital, which is why Metrolinx says people are going to need to swallow these taxes and fees to pay for it.

As I have said before though, one of the keys is once you spend the money maximize the benefit and use to the public.

My "pet project" is the extension of all day two way GO service on the Kitchener line.....so when you spend over a $1B of taxpayer capital building the necessary improvements and the net public transit gain is 5 return GO train trips and only on workdays....it becomes hard to sell the line "let me tax/toll you more so we can invest the capital required to bring you better transit".

What is the capacity of a 10 car GO train? 1,400 people? So over $1B investment nets the ability to move 7,000 more people (assuming - likely falsely that no bus trips are cancelled when the 5 new trains are added)? That is not the sort of track record to point back at when trying to sell the idea of "raising additional revenue for additional transit investment".

As I have said before, even though that line serves my commute....as a fan of prudent use of taxpayer revenue if we knew that all we were getting for over a billion dollars of investment was 5 return trips a week and a line to the airport I would have been against this investment.

 

[TOareaFan]

as long as the tolls and gas taxes start in cities which have a all day go train option then I don't see what the problem is. I cant see a province wide gas tax that would have Ottawa drivers or timmins drivers paying for GTA transit. Rather it will be GTA tolls and GTA gas tax that will be paid for by GTA drivers.

I would be interested to know how you limit the tolls and gas taxes to cities which have an all day go train option? Using the most talked about road as an example, the Gardiner brings people in from cities that are not Oakville, Burlington and south Mississauga.....how would the system know whether you were from those places as opposed to, say, Brampton?

 

[ssiguy2]

For Kathleen, the transit improvements have to include the GTA and all urban areas (Waterloo, Ottawa, North Bay, etc.), and not just Toronto, in her campaign or government session.

Surely you are not implying that Torontonians be treated the same way as as the people in the rest of the province?

I know for a fact that the people of North Bay, London, Kingston, and Goderich are itching for higher taxes to make sure that Torontonians do not have to suffer the indignity of paying for some of their own transportation infrastructure. Didn't you know that Toronto has started a charity drive outside the almighty city so that Ontarians can make donations towards their long- suffering capitol?

Toronto has but to ask and the "others" of Ontario will be more than willing to live with reduced transit and potholed streets to spare their illustrious centre of the universe the prospect of having to spend their own money for their infrastructure. Thankfully for Toronto the "others" know their place and appreciate that their sacrifice to Toronto will confirm their place in the line at the pearly gates when their time comes.

Torontonians and all Ontarians know there are only 2 types of people in Ontario...........those that live in Toronto and those that wish they did.

For the very few in the province who are hesitant about giving Toronto everything it could ever want or need free of charge, they know that they will pay the price with devine retribution by the all mighty himself, who rumour has it once owned a summer house in The Beaches.

So let's not hear anymore talk about transit infrastructure funds for the untouchables who live outside god's realm.

 

[nfitz]

Surely you are not implying that Torontonians be treated the same way as as the people in the rest of the province?

I know for a fact that the people of North Bay, London, Kingston, and Goderich are itching for higher taxes to make sure that Torontonians do not have to suffer the indignity of paying for some of their own transportation infrastructure. Didn't you know that Toronto has started a charity drive outside the almighty city so that Ontarians can make donations towards their long- suffering capitol?

Toronto has but to ask and the "others" of Ontario will be more than willing to live with reduced transit and potholed streets to spare their illustrious centre of the universe the prospect of having to spend their own money for their infrastructure. Thankfully for Toronto the "others" know their place and appreciate that their sacrifice to Toronto will confirm their place in the line at the pearly gates when their time comes.

Torontonians and all Ontarians know there are only 2 types of people in Ontario...........those that live in Toronto and those that wish they did.

For the very few in the province who are hesitant about giving Toronto everything it could ever want or need free of charge, they know that they will pay the price with devine retribution by the all mighty himself, who rumour has it once owned a summer house in The Beaches.

So let's not hear anymore talk about transit infrastructure funds for the untouchables who live outside god's realm.

Uh ... you are aware that the Province of Ontario collects more tax dollars in Toronto than they spend in Toronto right?

 

[sixrings]

I would be interested to know how you limit the tolls and gas taxes to cities which have an all day go train option? Using the most talked about road as an example, the Gardiner brings people in from cities that are not Oakville, Burlington and south Mississauga.....how would the system know whether you were from those places as opposed to, say, Brampton?

Id start my TOLLS from HURONTARIO and QEW, HURONTARIO and 401.... (START OF WEST TOLLS) From WONDERLAND and 400, 16th and 404 (START of NORTH TOLLS), Whites road and 401 (Start of EAST tolls).

No system is perfect and the few people who commute from places like Barrie, Startford, or Niagra will unfortunately get dinged.

as for the gas tax. If I call your city from the center of Toronto and I dial 905 then you will be gas taxed. If I have to dial 1-905 then you are far enough away that you don't need to pay the extra gas tax. Obviously some people will take advantage of such a system and drive out of their way to get the cheaper gas but most people especially closer to Toronto wont.

I like the 1$ charge for every parking spot at malls as well... Anyone who says they would all together stop shopping is a window shopper anyway and the mall should be content with them staying at home.

 

[TOareaFan]

Id start my TOLLS from HURONTARIO and QEW, HURONTARIO

So you would capture the folks in Brampton in that tolling net....and contrary to your plan they don't have all day two way GO.

as for the gas tax. If I call your city from the center of Toronto and I dial 905 then you will be gas taxed. If I have to dial 1-905 then you are far enough away that you don't need to pay the extra gas tax.

So, again a Bramptonian would pay the gas tax but someone from Oshawa would not.

(I am obviously speaking from a Brampton perspective but that is because it comes easily, I am sure there are other towns you could insert into those sentences in place of Brampton and get the same result).

I am actually a 905er that would/could support road tolls for transit....if we find the right formula....but I am really having trouble with your idea.

 

[sixrings]

So you would capture the folks in Brampton in that tolling net....and contrary to your plan they don't have all day two way GO.




So, again a Bramptonian would pay the gas tax but someone from Oshawa would not.

(I am obviously speaking from a Brampton perspective but that is because it comes easily, I am sure there are other towns you could insert into those sentences in place of Brampton and get the same result).

I am actually a 905er that would/could support road tolls for transit....if we find the right formula....but I am really having trouble with your idea.

I mapquested downtown Toronto to Oshawa (61kms) and Toronto to Brampton (41kms) so yes they would be included. I live at Bathurst and Eglinton and I use the ALLEN and the 401 almost DAILY so I will be hit as well and feel your pain. You seem to be ok with tolls as long as others suffer as well. We need to draw the line somewhere and some people may be perceived as benefitting versus others.

Brampton obviously need all day go service as well so I am with you on that.

BTW I didn't place a toll on the 403 and that's a pretty big road.

 

[TOareaFan]

I mapquested downtown Toronto to Oshawa (61kms) and Toronto to Brampton (41kms) so yes they would be included.

I was just using your cut off point of whether or not you have to dial long distance and overlaying it with your test of whether or not they have all day service. Oshawa, in your model, would allow drivers to "escape" the cost of a driving commute while having the availibility of all day service. There may be examples like the shwa in other areas but because I called Oshawa the other day it was easy for me to remember that it was long distance from the centre of Toronto.

You seem to be ok with tolls as long as others suffer as well. We need to draw the line somewhere and some people may be perceived as benefitting versus others.

I am ok with tolls as long as there is a system of tolling that comes across as somewhat targetted at the goals sought....which I thought were to reduce congestion while raising revenues for transit improvements which will, in time, further reduce congestion. So I was intrigued by the notion you suggested that we somehow target the initial tranche of tolling at people who already have a reasonable/viable transit option. I just wondered how that could be applied and administered......in that "model" Oshawa car commuters would seem to be people that could/should be targeted to carry a financial burden because by driving they are turning their back on the available rail service....instead of being exempt while others without that alternative are "dinged".

BTW I didn't place a toll on the 403 and that's a pretty big road.

It is a big road....but not used much by people in daily commutes to downtown Toronto (which I thought was the focus....may have been wrong on that "thought").

 

[sixrings]

just to be clear if the Oshawa driver comes into Toronto they will still be subject to tolls. So if there commute is the office that's 5 mins from their house then they are exempt. Everone will be tolled when entering the Toronto area. The question is when that toll starts.

You might think im crazy but I am completely for GPS tolling. That means even if you drive on side streets you would be tolled as well. maybe less but still tolled. we need to find ways to raise revenue not ways to avoid it.

 

[TOareaFan]

just to be clear if the Oshawa driver comes into Toronto they will still be subject to tolls. So if there commute is the office that's 5 mins from their house then they are exempt. Everone will be tolled when entering the Toronto area. The question is when that toll starts.

You might think im crazy but I am completely for GPS tolling. That means even if you drive on side streets you would be tolled as well. maybe less but still tolled. we need to find ways to raise revenue not ways to avoid it.

I am not trying to avoid raising revenue....I just believe that to have any chance (and even at that it is slim) of broad public support and acceptance new "commuting revenue streams" there has to be at least a sense that they are somewhat equitably administered, targeted and invested.

ie........if you spend a few years tolling the commuters on the Gardiner in the west end and then build with those funds a drl in the east end you really can't expect a lot of happy people who paid the tolls in the west (and before I get attacked for that example I am being extreme and I am not questioning the desirablity of that transit project....... but where the tolls are rasied and who from relative to how they are used, I think, is an issue).

 

[gweed123]

All-day two-way GO has been announced, it just isn't a cheap operating cost-only thing. It's going to cost $4.9 billion in capital, which is why Metrolinx says people are going to need to swallow these taxes and fees to pay for it.

Hmm, I wonder how much of that "total cost" is already part of various other projects. Thanks for the links!

 

[gweed123]

as long as the tolls and gas taxes start in cities which have a all day go train option then I don't see what the problem is. I cant see a province wide gas tax that would have Ottawa drivers or timmins drivers paying for GTA transit. Rather it will be GTA tolls and GTA gas tax that will be paid for by GTA drivers.

I would agree with that. But I would like to see the enabling legislation be Province-wide, so that municipalities can implement it if they choose to without having to go specifically to the Province to approve it.

Ottawa has a pretty bold transit plan, but no secure method of funding it. I can see Ottawa being a close 2nd, or even first, in implementing these types of measures. Remember, Ottawa has a Liberal mayor and a pretty functional council (the Confederation Line project was approved unanimously).

 

[gweed123]

When it comes to tolls, I still think that, at least for Phase 1, only tolling the Express lanes on the 401 is the way to go. I think that this scheme would face significantly less opposition than the 'toll boundary' proposal above. With that, your choices are either to take local roads or to pay the toll. With only tolling the Express lanes, you don't force people to pay the toll.

This could also be a good template to use for future highway expansions. Take for example the 410. After a couple years of tolling the 401, Metrolinx can announce that they're going to toll all of the 410 during peak periods in order to pay for an Express-Collector system on the 401 from the 401 to the 407 or Queen St. Once that system is implemented, the Express would stay tolled, but the Collectors would be reverted to free. The same method can be applied to the 400, the 404, or the 403.

With the Gardiner and DVP, I think those tolls should be saved for Phase 2. Get people used to the 401 tolls, and then go from there.

It's better to start out small, and then grow from there, instead of overreaching to begin with and have the whole thing get rejected before it even gets off the ground.