Orangeville-Brampton Railway (OBRY)

[TOareaFan]

If it was a separate service than GO, yes, as I don't think Metrolinx/CP wants anymore trains on the Milton Line, or going to Union.

Ideal would be to go to Milton line and express to Union, but thats a pipe dream.

Pretty circuitous route South of Brampton to the Streetsville GO station....not sure why someone with a final destination of Union (if this ever happened) would ever consider not getting off at Brampton and going to Union from there (assuming any service in this hypothetical line had its schedule co-ordinated with the the schedules on the KW line through Brampton).

 

[robmausser]

Pretty circuitous route South of Brampton to the Streetsville GO station....not sure why someone with a final destination of Union (if this ever happened) would ever consider not getting off at Brampton and going to Union from there (assuming any service in this hypothetical line had its schedule co-ordinated with the the schedules on the KW line through Brampton).

Never underestimate what people will be willing to do to not transfer to another train!

 

[TOareaFan]

Never underestimate what people will be willing to do to not transfer to another train!

And in my vision of how we develop rail at the outer edges of the system....we should be taking those irrational choices out of their hands. Using this very hypothetical (and unlikely IMO) example you have raised.....

....if we have a vehicle type that supports low(er) ridership routes and logic/facts show that the fastest route to Union is to connect a short vehicle/short run to a larger "main" line that is what we should offer. Show that by taking the train from Orangeville to Brampton then connecting to the enhanced service is the fastest/most efficient route to Union....not twist ourselves into a knot trying to find a way to run a separate/more costly/longer trip route all the way to Union.

.....most of my international train travel has been in the UK...that is how they do it....if you buy a ticket in their equivalent of Orangeville you buy one that says "Orangeville to Union"....but printed on it is "change trains in Brampton"

People (IMO) only worry about transfers because they are conditioned to worry that they might have to wait "forever" for the second train....if you have built your mainline service to the point that people do not worry about that...the worry about transfers goes away (as well as having pleasant(er) stations to make the transfer).

 

[Fritter]

People (IMO) only worry about transfers because they are conditioned to worry that they might have to wait "forever" for the second train.

I think some of the aversion to transferring is the fear of getting on the wrong train at transfer point, or missing transfer due to long gate to gate connection. This is especially true for seniors. (Again IMO)

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Pretty circuitous route South of Brampton to the Streetsville GO station....not sure why someone with a final destination of Union (if this ever happened) would ever consider not getting off at Brampton and going to Union from there (assuming any service in this hypothetical line had its schedule co-ordinated with the the schedules on the KW line through Brampton).

Never underestimate what people will be willing to do to not transfer to another train!

The OBRY line used to have a connection to the Kitchener Line near Brampton GO - this connection could easily be rebuilt for a continual service to Union.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If it was a separate service than GO, yes, as I don't think Metrolinx/CP wants anymore trains on the Milton Line, or going to Union.

Ideal would be to go to Milton line and express to Union, but thats a pipe dream.

Spillover: when the city comes to the country
via The Globe and Mail (March 3rd, 2017)

This article isn't about the railway specifically, but mentions some communities like Orangeville and Shelburne (rails don't run to the latter anymore) who are along the former line that are booming population-wise.

I know this is entering unlikely fantasy territory, but I'd love to see the line re-extended 22 km from Orangeville to Shelburne to both serve as a weather-proof commuter link, and to spur economic development. The lumber yard in Shelburne was a rail customer, and Shelburne could become a farming hub to transfer grain ect to rail. Yes, I understand that a Town of 8,000 can't really justify that, but it is nice to dream.

This is simple. Connect this line to to CP Bolton by running new tracks across Caledon. There's your new go line.

 

[drum118]

There are things that are wrong with these proposed changes.

To put back the interchange at Brampton will have a major impact for 3 tracking this area, with the new 3rd track on the north side. That 3rd track will be north of the old interchange with the interchange interfering with existing buildings in the area unless connecting to track 2/3. This is still based on the Bypass not being built.

As for the Bolton connection, the Bolton GO line is plan for CP MacTier Sub and to date, CP hasn't play well with Metrolinx for new tracks in their corridor. One only has to look at the Milton Line to see this.

The Bolton line will split off the Weston Sub at Weston Station that will see a 3rd centre platform built to service track 1 & 1A with 1A joining 1 south of the platform. There is also a thought that this could be a side platform with no 1A with the Bolton line cutting off at the very north end of the platform. A platform will have to be built when Track 1 goes in, in the coming years.

CP COFC yard in Bolton that requires trains to drop off/pickup cars for western Canada train. CP runs to/from this yard to the Toronto yards as well.

Unless this train is EMU, the Weston folks will bitch about these trains and most likely the Caledon ones as well.

The idea floated years ago, was having the Orangeville line coming off the Milton Line with 2 station in Mississauga and a number along the line.

 

[robmausser]

There are things that are wrong with these proposed changes.

To put back the interchange at Brampton will have a major impact for 3 tracking this area, with the new 3rd track on the north side. That 3rd track will be north of the old interchange with the interchange interfering with existing buildings in the area unless connecting to track 2/3. This is still based on the Bypass not being built.

As for the Bolton connection, the Bolton GO line is plan for CP MacTier Sub and to date, CP hasn't play well with Metrolinx for new tracks in their corridor. One only has to look at the Milton Line to see this.

The Bolton line will split off the Weston Sub at Weston Station that will see a 3rd centre platform built to service track 1 & 1A with 1A joining 1 south of the platform. There is also a thought that this could be a side platform with no 1A with the Bolton line cutting off at the very north end of the platform. A platform will have to be built when Track 1 goes in, in the coming years.

CP COFC yard in Bolton that requires trains to drop off/pickup cars for western Canada train. CP runs to/from this yard to the Toronto yards as well.

Unless this train is EMU, the Weston folks will bitch about these trains and most likely the Caledon ones as well.

The idea floated years ago, was having the Orangeville line coming off the Milton Line with 2 station in Mississauga and a number along the line.

yes that was my concern with continuing to Union on Kitchener Line. UPX, AD2W GO, VIA, eventually HSR, the Georgetown corridor needs a break.

The Orangeville train, whatever it is, would be peak commuter service only, for a while, the ridership already would be barely enough even as a single daily morning/evening train in and out of T.O.

So I thought sticking it on the Milton Line would be the best choice, since all the GO trains would be going in the same direction.

 

[TOareaFan]

yes that was my concern with continuing to Union on Kitchener Line. UPX, AD2W GO, VIA, eventually HSR, the Georgetown corridor needs a break.

The Orangeville train, whatever it is, would be peak commuter service only, for a while, the ridership already would be barely enough even as a single daily morning/evening train in and out of T.O.

So I thought sticking it on the Milton Line would be the best choice, since all the GO trains would be going in the same direction.

see and I think you could offer more frequent service (and therefore grow ridership better) if you just shuttled the train(s) back and forth between Orangeville and Brampton and connected to the GO service there rather than take that little train all the way downtown replicating already exsting services....would be a) a faster trip to Union and b) more frequent....are speed and frequency major factors in building ridership on any line?

 

[crs1026]

The shuttle makes sense, especially since the diamond has been rebuilt with the newer flangeless crossing trackage. This requires a very slow and bumpy north south movement. Crossing three tracks would be problemmatic for operations, anyways.
I bet a dMU would be a lot more marketable than a bus connection, even if it only made two return trips per rush hour.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

yes that was my concern with continuing to Union on Kitchener Line. UPX, AD2W GO, VIA, eventually HSR, the Georgetown corridor needs a break.

The Orangeville train, whatever it is, would be peak commuter service only, for a while, the ridership already would be barely enough even as a single daily morning/evening train in and out of T.O.

So I thought sticking it on the Milton Line would be the best choice, since all the GO trains would be going in the same direction.

There are things that are wrong with these proposed changes.

To put back the interchange at Brampton will have a major impact for 3 tracking this area, with the new 3rd track on the north side. That 3rd track will be north of the old interchange with the interchange interfering with existing buildings in the area unless connecting to track 2/3. This is still based on the Bypass not being built.

As for the Bolton connection, the Bolton GO line is plan for CP MacTier Sub and to date, CP hasn't play well with Metrolinx for new tracks in their corridor. One only has to look at the Milton Line to see this.

The Bolton line will split off the Weston Sub at Weston Station that will see a 3rd centre platform built to service track 1 & 1A with 1A joining 1 south of the platform. There is also a thought that this could be a side platform with no 1A with the Bolton line cutting off at the very north end of the platform. A platform will have to be built when Track 1 goes in, in the coming years.

CP COFC yard in Bolton that requires trains to drop off/pickup cars for western Canada train. CP runs to/from this yard to the Toronto yards as well.

Unless this train is EMU, the Weston folks will bitch about these trains and most likely the Caledon ones as well.

The idea floated years ago, was having the Orangeville line coming off the Milton Line with 2 station in Mississauga and a number along the line.

I think Bolton is a better option because it would be better to create an entire new line rather then crowd Milton. We should get all day service to Milton before thinking of branches.

 

[drum118]

I think Bolton is a better option because it would be better to create an entire new line rather then crowd Milton. We should get all day service to Milton before thinking of branches.

It maybe the best option, but a very costly one when you look at the CP Corridor from Weston Station to this cut off.

I don't know the width of the corridor in detail, but you are going to have to do the same thing as the KW line to get under the 401 for CP corridor.

Again, will CP allow this??

Using the Orangeville line, it opens up a new market that will see more riders use it than the Bolton Line.

Again, this is an example where GO/Metrolinx needs a smaller train/fleet to service low level ridership areas. Even with RER, you don't need 12 cars trains off peak as well peak on some lines.

 

[Allandale25]

There are things that are wrong with these proposed changes.

To put back the interchange at Brampton will have a major impact for 3 tracking this area, with the new 3rd track on the north side. That 3rd track will be north of the old interchange with the interchange interfering with existing buildings in the area unless connecting to track 2/3. This is still based on the Bypass not being built.

The October 27, 2014 "Metrolinx Electrification Project - Conceptual Design Report Part 3 Kitchener Corridor Version 3" submitted by Parsons Brinckerhoff indicated, based on my reading of the key passages below and the maps (not to scale), that the new 3rd track would be located on the south side of the existing tracks, not the north side at the Brampton GO Station.

However, with the 2016 bypass announcement it may not be needed. Also, given the report is from 2014, further electrification studies might have different information. That said, until the bypass announcement came along my understanding was that the TPAP for electrification stopped at Bramalea. Key passages below from the 2014 report about the location of the third track in downtown Brampton:

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[crs1026]

The October 27, 2014 "Metrolinx Electrification Project - Conceptual Design Report Part 3 Kitchener Corridor Version 3" submitted by Parsons Brinckerhoff indicated, based on my reading of the key passages below and the maps (not to scale), that the new 3rd track would be located on the south side of the existing tracks, not the north side at the Brampton GO Station.

However, with the 2016 bypass announcement it may not be needed. Also, given the report is from 2014, further electrification studies might have different information. That said, until the bypass announcement came along my understanding was that the TPAP for electrification stopped at Bramalea. Key passages below from the 2014 report about the location of the third track in downtown Brampton:

Some earlier documents - which I saw online, but didn't keep a copy - showed the proposed third track running straight through the depot. The future of the depot - a heritage structure - was in question at that time. But that was just a proposal.

As @alexanderglista indicates, there was a connecting track at one time that ran eastwards towards the CN main line. That alignment is still viable, with a small platform and a dead end spur for the DMU.

There are numerous examples in other countries where a branch line railcar makes connection with a mainline route via a cross-platform transfer. This would be a great application of that concept.

The other issue in all of this is likely the people living in the Cataract-Alton area, who do not welcome development in that area. This is more than NIMBYism, the Greenbelt does not entertain development in that area. An express service to Orangeville, with stops perhaps at Snelgrove and further north at Melville, might be doable....but we do not want a stop in downtown Inglewood.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

Some earlier documents - which I saw online, but didn't keep a copy - showed the proposed third track running straight through the depot. The future of the depot - a heritage structure - was in question at that time. But that was just a proposal.

- Paul

The only public document I've seen which showed the track on the north side and the Brampton GO Station being shifted slightly to the north (see "Relocated GO Station") is from the HMLRT TPAP track plan (see online PDF version here). It may have been created before the October 27, 2014 report I referenced above.

There was also a notation on the main drawing in the white box: