Montréal Transit Developments

[nfitz]

Thought it would be useful to try to unify discussion about the latest Montreal transit news in the new thread which it would be easy for UT people to miss...

I believe that's what Wisla thought when he created that very thread here.

Only to have a mod move it over there because it's not Toronto.

So now we start discussing here again?

Sounds like Montreal and Toronto have similar issues around "new" transit plans. But if Montreal were actually to get their long-hoped-for infrastructure built this way while Toronto dithers that would still be a result, no?

Montreal has been dithering about that line since the early 1960s. And Montreal has been dithering about building anything now for almost 30 years. Despite all their plans about a Line 5 extension to Anjou 35-years ago, Metro on Pie-IX (Line 7), and various LRT proposals (remember the various 1980s plans to build an LRT from Honore-Beaugrand to the east?). And yet the only thing that has been build in almost 30 years on the island of Montreal is a 3rd platform at metro Henri-Bourassa for the 3 metro stations that were built in Laval.

They even did the unthinkable, and built a massive hospital adjacent to metro Vendome, and extended the already-existing tunnel from the metro station to the AMT station, into the parking garage for the hospital - and didn't install any elevators, because they couldn't agree on whose responsibility it was.

So you have all these people who need accessible transport from one of the busier stations in Montreal to the hospital next door, having to use a shuttle bus.

Look at the post that started this thread. 7 years ago upset that Montreal was getting 3 Metro extensions, while Toronto was only getting the Vaughan and Richmond Hill extensions.

7 years later, we are building Vaughan, and the 20-km Eglinton line - not to mention the Finch West line. And we are talking about extension in Scarborough and the downtown relief line. And Montreal? Still all talk ...

 

[aquateam]

They even did the unthinkable, and built a massive hospital adjacent to metro Vendome, and extended the already-existing tunnel from the metro station to the AMT station, into the parking garage for the hospital - and didn't install any elevators, because they couldn't agree on whose responsibility it was.

So you have all these people who need accessible transport from one of the busier stations in Montreal to the hospital next door, having to use a shuttle bus.

I'm pretty sure Montreal's policy is to discourage the handicapped from using the metro.

Currently only about 4 of the stations are accessible. The plan is to have the entire system accessible by 2080. That means that everyone currently working for the STM will be dead before the system is accessible.

They completely close down stations (like Baubien) for renovations for months at a time and don't bother installing elevators. That's how serious they take accessibility. Given how deep most of the stations are, it's especially difficult to traverse umpteen flights of stairs if you're elderly or not able bodied.

The buses don't have the automatic stop announcements, like Toronto does. And the automatic announcements in the metro are usually off by a couple stations, which I imagine is to purposely confuse any blind people who might attempt to take it.

 

[skahhigh]

I believe that's what Wisla thought when he created that very thread here.

Only to have a mod move it over there because it's not Toronto.

So now we start discussing here again?

Montreal has been dithering about that line since the early 1960s. And Montreal has been dithering about building anything now for almost 30 years. Despite all their plans about a Line 5 extension to Anjou 35-years ago, Metro on Pie-IX (Line 7), and various LRT proposals (remember the various 1980s plans to build an LRT from Honore-Beaugrand to the east?). And yet the only thing that has been build in almost 30 years on the island of Montreal is a 3rd platform at metro Henri-Bourassa for the 3 metro stations that were built in Laval.

They even did the unthinkable, and built a massive hospital adjacent to metro Vendome, and extended the already-existing tunnel from the metro station to the AMT station, into the parking garage for the hospital - and didn't install any elevators, because they couldn't agree on whose responsibility it was.

So you have all these people who need accessible transport from one of the busier stations in Montreal to the hospital next door, having to use a shuttle bus.

Look at the post that started this thread. 7 years ago upset that Montreal was getting 3 Metro extensions, while Toronto was only getting the Vaughan and Richmond Hill extensions.

7 years later, we are building Vaughan, and the 20-km Eglinton line - not to mention the Finch West line. And we are talking about extension in Scarborough and the downtown relief line. And Montreal? Still all talk ...

I guess we will see in a year if you're right... Please note that the REM is not an old revived project, but a completely new one thought by the CDPQ.

Maybe you should follow the project closely this summer as the Caisse holds public meetings in the concerned municipalities and auditions in front of the Public Audience Environment Bureau (usually the first step before starting construction on a project), something which none of the other "proposed" projects did. This shows how serious the CDPQ is with this one. Plus, the Federal and Provincial governments already pretty much agreed to pay their share of the funding ($2.5B) (source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/justin-trudeau-quebec-liberals-speech-1.3560731).

This is truly one of the biggest public transit in Canada right now (along with GO RER) and yes, it will mean that Montreal will have a bigger rapid transit system than Toronto (given that the REM will be fully grade-separated). Does this mean Toronto's transit network sucks? Not at all. The RER will completely change mobility in the GTA and there are several other projects in the books for TO.

The difference maker here is the investor. Trust me, if the government was proposing this project, I would be as skeptical as you. But since it's the Caisse (which funded a third of the Canada line), this project is already well advanced.

 

[nfitz]

I guess we will see in a year if you're right...

A year? Go back to page 1. How are those doing.

Please note that the REM is not an old revived project, but a completely new one thought by the CDPQ.

I'm not sure how a project to put metro-frequency steel-wheel electrified service through the existing tunnel and track from Central Station to Deux-Montagnes adding new stations at metro Édouard-Montpetit and metro McGill is that much different a project to put metro-frequency steel-wheel electrified service through the existing tunnel and track from Central Station to Deux-Montagnes adding new stations at metro Édouard-Montpetit and metro McGill. All that seems different here, are proposed extensions to the south shore and through West Island and to Trudeau.

However, the proposed extension to the south-shore, from Central Station to Brossard, is the old AMT Grand Projet pour SLR (LRT) a Brossard that they've been talking about for decades ... not sure how long, but it was on their website back in 2002 - https://web.archive.org/web/20020616092559/http://www.amt.qc.ca/grandsprojets/SLR/index.asp

And I'm pretty sure I saw plans for the West Island (and Trudeau) service back in the 1980s or so, because I recall the fuss that those using the CP commuter line would find the new line inconveniently located.

So what's new about this? Merging 3 or 4 old projects, and re-announcing it.

Montreal and Quebec have been reannouncing the same projects, or minor variants on them for years. Don't pretend this is completely new, or will progress any faster than much of what has been proposed since the early 1960s.

 

[skahhigh]

A year? Go back to page 1. How are those doing.

I'm not sure how a project to put metro-frequency steel-wheel electrified service through the existing tunnel and track from Central Station to Deux-Montagnes adding new stations at metro Édouard-Montpetit and metro McGill is that much different a project to put metro-frequency steel-wheel electrified service through the existing tunnel and track from Central Station to Deux-Montagnes adding new stations at metro Édouard-Montpetit and metro McGill. All that seems different here, are proposed extensions to the south shore and through West Island and to Trudeau.

However, the proposed extension to the south-shore, from Central Station to Brossard, is the old AMT Grand Projet pour SLR (LRT) a Brossard that they've been talking about for decades ... not sure how long, but it was on their website back in 2002 - https://web.archive.org/web/20020616092559/http://www.amt.qc.ca/grandsprojets/SLR/index.asp

And I'm pretty sure I saw plans for the West Island (and Trudeau) service back in the 1980s or so, because I recall the fuss that those using the CP commuter line would find the new line inconveniently located.

So what's new about this? Merging 3 or 4 old projects, and re-announcing it.

Montreal and Quebec have been reannouncing the same projects, or minor variants on them for years. Don't pretend this is completely new, or will progress any faster than much of what has been proposed since the early 1960s.

You sound sort of jealous. Like I said, let's see in spring 2017 when construction is scheduled to start if you were right regarding this project.

I get your skepticism due to the inaction of the government regarding the other projects but I guarantee you this one is serious.

Plus, who cares if it's a fusion of several older plans? It's still one of the most interesting projects nationwide. What it was before doesn't change anything... Like I said, the fact that the Caisse is planning and investing here makes it much different.

 

[nfitz]

You sound sort of jealous. Like I said, let's see in spring 2017 when construction is scheduled to start if you were right regarding this project.

If the Caisse does push ahead with it (and it's possible, given they've been talking about it for at least a year or so already), it doesn't change my key point:

That this is nothing new.

I'm not saying it won't happen this time.

I'm just saying that this project, and variants on it, have been bounced around since at least the early 1960s.

Now let's get back to the main topic of this 2009 thread. How are those 3 metro expansions progressing?

I don't even know why we are discussing this here, given the mods already moved Montreal discussion elsewhere ...

 

[skahhigh]

If the Caisse does push ahead with it (and it's possible, given they've been talking about it for at least a year or so already), it doesn't change my key point:

That this is nothing new.

I'm not saying it won't happen this time.

I'm just saying that this project, and variants on it, have been bounced around since at least the early 1960s.

Now let's get back to the main topic of this 2009 thread. How are those 3 metro expansions progressing?

I don't even know why we are discussing this here, given the mods already moved Montreal discussion elsewhere ...

The Blue line extension might actually happen. The other two have been shelved with the arrival of the REM.

Your point regarding the ancientness of this project is moot. The DRL is also an old project but would be very beneficial to Toronto, I think you would agree.

Sorry about discussing it here, didn't know it was moved since some users were posting here earlier today.

 

[nfitz]

The Blue line extension might actually happen. The other two have been shelved with the arrival of the REM.

I don't see how the Metro extension in Longueuil has much bearing on light rail in Brossard. And I'd have thought this new project would have increased the need for the Orange Line extension to the REM station to Bois Franc (an extension that Montreal has been talking about for 40 years already!)

Glad to see the Blue Line plan is going ahead ... but I guess that's only a bit over 30 years old, not 40 years old like the Orange Line extension that's on hold yet again!

Your point regarding the ancientness of this project is moot. The DRL is also an old project but would be very beneficial to Toronto, I think you would agree.

The point is, that the posts in this forum in the last week or so, seem to be some some amazement about a new proposal that's come out of nowhere. It's that myth I'm trying to dispel here.

And also the attitude that it's a done deal. I thought the Blue Line extension to Anjou was a done deal when it was placed on the maps in the metro trains over 30 years ago ...

 

[SFO-YYZ]

To be fair, both Montreal and Toronto have been dithering on large capital projects compared with other major cities in the world, so any progress, whether the project is "old" or "new", should be applauded as good news for the people of both cities. From the news reports, it sounds like the Montreal LRT project is both shovel-ready n terms of planning and funding-ready, so it is realistic to see actual construction start in 2017. Toronto is also undergoing a massive transit transformation atm, but as we all know, most projects like RER, SmartTrack, and Hurontario LRT are still several years away from construction start, some still with funding uncertainties and planning blind spots depending on the political atmosphere of the day. The only bright spots are Eglinton and UPX, and the latter only got completed because of external pressure from Pan Am games. That's all good, but making Toronto seem like a shining standard of transit expansion by world standards may be a stretch.

 

[nfitz]

To be fair, both Montreal and Toronto have been dithering on large capital projects compared with other major cities in the world ...

Other cities? Like New York City delaying the Second Avenue Subway for 80 years? How many miles of tunnel did they dig in the 1970s? Or London with the quarter-century delay in the completion of the Jubilee Line. How many years were they talking about Crossrail before they started digging - they were discussing it seriously since the 1970s - and the original proposal goes back to the 1940s.

And then there is Seattle - how many proposal have been made to extend the monorail since the 1950s? Gosh, they even passed a referendum approving it - and still nothing happened.

 

[mdrejhon]

Currently only about 4 of the stations are accessible. The plan is to have the entire system accessible by 2080. That means that everyone currently working for the STM will be dead before the system is accessible.

Hey!

I worked in Montreal briefly as part of a contract -- commuting from Ottawa!
I saw elevator construction occuring, and there definitely is more than 4 accessible starions now.

There are NINE now.
Not nearly enough, alas. But more than a doubling.

 

[andrewpmk]

To be fair, both Montreal and Toronto have been dithering on large capital projects compared with other major cities in the world, so any progress, whether the project is "old" or "new", should be applauded as good news for the people of both cities. From the news reports, it sounds like the Montreal LRT project is both shovel-ready n terms of planning and funding-ready, so it is realistic to see actual construction start in 2017. Toronto is also undergoing a massive transit transformation atm, but as we all know, most projects like RER, SmartTrack, and Hurontario LRT are still several years away from construction start, some still with funding uncertainties and planning blind spots depending on the political atmosphere of the day. The only bright spots are Eglinton and UPX, and the latter only got completed because of external pressure from Pan Am games. That's all good, but making Toronto seem like a shining standard of transit expansion by world standards may be a stretch.

Is what Montreal is proposing really LRT? LRT is not normally automated. Certainly what they are planning looks nothing like Eglinton. It sounds like they are abusing the term to mean "automated light metro" which is similar to Vancouver's system. Also I very much doubt it if this will start construction in 2017 if it is approved.

I think a commuter rail electrification program similar to Metrolinx RER would make far more sense. It would include all the commuter rail lines in Montreal, not just the Deux-Montagnes line, and it would avoid shutting down the Deux-Montagnes line during construction, and it would avoid truncating the Mascouche line which also uses the Mont-Royal tunnel.

 

[ksun]

Other cities? Like New York City delaying the Second Avenue Subway for 80 years? How many miles of tunnel did they dig in the 1970s? Or London with the quarter-century delay in the completion of the Jubilee Line. How many years were they talking about Crossrail before they started digging - they were discussing it seriously since the 1970s - and the original proposal goes back to the 1940s.

And then there is Seattle - how many proposal have been made to extend the monorail since the 1950s? Gosh, they even passed a referendum approving it - and still nothing happened.

Los Angeles has built a lot in recent years, in case you forget. Vancouver is ahead of us as well and it is 1/3 of Toronto's size. NYC has 26 lines so we are not in a position to judge before we have at least, 7? Chicago, well, they already have a system Toronto still put as "fantasy maps".

In any case, Toronto is not a fine example in terms of transit building and nobody would look at our system, even the future one in envy. The Vaughan extension is a bad example given the real transit bottlenecks are consistently ignored. The only thing that's happening is the Eglinton line, and that's it. RER, smarttrack or whatever, I will believe it when I see it. Being "several years away from construction" is not enough. God knows how many is "several", could be 5 or 15 given our highly competent and decisive government.

 

[smallspy]

Is what Montreal is proposing really LRT? LRT is not normally automated. Certainly what they are planning looks nothing like Eglinton. It sounds like they are abusing the term to mean "automated light metro" which is similar to Vancouver's system. Also I very much doubt it if this will start construction in 2017 if it is approved.

The SkyTrain in Vancouver is automated, and is certainly considered "light rail" relative to both traditional subways and the full-sized railways. And that's the type of system that some had been suggesting/projecting for the line to the South Shore.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ksun]

2 km of difference.

At least Toronto will still have the tallest CN tower in Canada. We're number 1! We're number 1!

Toronto will always hold the title of being "the most expensive transit system" in Canada and probably North America depending on the exchange rate. So our pride is still unharmed.