Monorail for Toronto

[nfitz]

To propose a monorail system and call our current system "mickey-mouse" is quite ironic.

As "innovative" as you claim them to be, they aren't the best winterized technology.

Poor Pedestrians.

Not sure why this thread is moving again. Worst idea ever for Toronto. Maybe it will work in the tropics ...

 

[Duck]

Well, that's your opinion (about it being the worst idea for Toronto) - not a fact. Maybe I think Transit City, putting surface Light Rail everywhere was the worst idea for Toronto? (I don't, for what it's worth, but I also don't think it would have been the ideal choice for Toronto, or any major city). Just like any transportation solution out there, there are good implementations, and bad implementations. Monorail has the unfortunate problem that with fewer installations, it's easier to target those that haven't worked out very well.

Try this thought experiment. Zoom out and pretend that no city in the world has any kind of mass transportation system. You don't know what a train is. A city presents two options to its citizens:

1. We could build trains above the city streets, with a narrow, clean beam, small supporting columns that only involve boring a hole the size of a trash can, trains would glide silently overhead on rubber tires, and offer passengers a view of the areas they're passing over, so they get their bearings of where they are and can enjoy the view. Stations are bright and airy, making people feel safe.
2. We could build trains below the streets, which will involve ripping up neighbourhoods, roads, existing infrastructure. They'll also make a ton of noise when they're above ground, because we'll put steel wheels on steel rails - and the rails will just be supported on a bunch of rocks that hopefully won't slip out of the way. And since it's in a dark tunnel, people have no idea where they are and have to guess by station names only where to get off. The dark, dirty tunnels will also offer a safe haven for crime.

Doesn't it kind of seem obvious that elevated/above grade is always a preferable choice?

There are some valid arguments in this thread; one that I see coming up a lot is the choice of a proprietary system causing trouble for future rolling stock purchases. But I have to point out that no matter what system you're using, rolling stock is always customized. Do you think you could put one of DC Metro's ROHR trains on Toronto's network and it would just work? Or Put NYC's trains on Chicago's cta track? Of course not. Besides gauge differences, there's the train width, the current collector location, the control and communication system... there are a host of issues that would have to be resolved for it to work. Every train order is always "custom", no matter what the system. If Scomi and Bombardier both decided they didn't want to do it anymore, I'm sure Hitachi would step up and build trains for Saõ Paulo. It's a myth that only monorails suffer from this - it's just more obvious to the layman that there are vendor issues when it's very obvious that the track between different types of monorails is different. The track, power supply and control systems on every urban rail system are different.

 

[44 North]

Elevated monorails are also less effected by severe weather than standard Metro and especially elevated LRT as the LRT have their catenaries exposed which makes them susceptible to sleet, high winds, and snow.

I don't know of any advantages of tunnelled monorail over tunneled subway/Metro. The capacity is the same as are the tunneling costs, stations etc although both are superior tio tunnelled LRT which has lower capacity and requires higher height tunnels and stations due to the catenary. When it comes to elevated transit however, monorail is superior to elevated LRT and/or Metro is every category.

But light rail doesn't have to use catenaries. It could have third rail, just as a standard heavy rail system. Or retractable pantos in certain sections. And yes, LRT vehicles are taller requiring larger height tunnels, but they also tend to be narrower than heavy rail systems (2.65m Flexity vs 3.14 TR subway). On the whole, I think there's a lot more flexibility with light rail than monorail - and heavy rail for that matter. They're a versatile workhorse that is the most popular system worldwide for a reason.

And TBH, I'm surprised more people aren't supporters of elevated light rail - considering the widespread hate on for the Scarboro Subway and desire to see the SRT modified/extended as light rail. That unbuilt system is exemplary of the merits of LRT: elevated, underground, on the surface alongside a rail corridor, can be affordably extended, and if the opportunity presented itself - the system could be run in-median.

Another point that I haven't seen addressed yet is the requirement for service/emergency walkways on the guideway. The whole thing about "mono" rails is that there's a single narrow girder the vehicle straddles. But when there's a mandated catwalk required - the main reason for going with monorail is a wash.

 

[ssiguy2]

If people don't like the idea of monorails then that's cool.

What pisses me off is these incredibly ignorant comments and ideas that somehow monorails are just for zoos and amusement parks and that they somehow are not "real" mass/rapid transit yet the only thing they know about monorails is that the Simpsons made a song out of it. If someone doesn't want a monorail then fine but at least be intelligent about why you don't want one.

 

[Markster]

What pisses me off is these incredibly ignorant comments and ideas that somehow monorails are just for zoos and amusement parks and that they somehow are not "real" mass/rapid transit [...] If someone doesn't want a monorail then fine but at least be intelligent about why you don't want one.

Indeed.
Hating on monorails simply for being unusual is like hating on Rob Ford for being overweight.
No need for the ad-hominem attacks, when there are so many valid and defensible arguments against them(/for the alternatives)!

 

[cplchanb]

If people don't like the idea of monorails then that's cool.

What pisses me off is these incredibly ignorant comments and ideas that somehow monorails are just for zoos and amusement parks and that they somehow are not "real" mass/rapid transit yet the only thing they know about monorails is that the Simpsons made a song out of it. If someone doesn't want a monorail then fine but at least be intelligent about why you don't want one.

hear hear

"monorail... monorail...MONORAIL!"

 

[ssiguy2]

Indeed.
Hating on monorails simply for being unusual is like hating on Rob Ford for being overweight.
No need for the ad-hominem attacks, when there are so many valid and defensible arguments against them(/for the alternatives)!

Instead of complaining about them, why don't you engage in intelligent conversation and gives us all your "so many valid and defensible arguments against them"? Why don't you actually actually give us some of the examples of which you are referring as opposed to childish sweeping states backed up by no facts? Please enlighten us as to how the 1,000,000 riders per day in Chongquig can fit on a transit system designed strictly for zoos and amusement parks.

 

[Forgotten]

Instead of complaining about them, why don't you engage in intelligent conversation and gives us all your "so many valid and defensible arguments against them"? Why don't you actually actually give us some of the examples of which you are referring as opposed to childish sweeping states backed up by no facts? Please enlighten us as to how the 1,000,000 riders per day in Chongquig can fit on a transit system designed strictly for zoos and amusement parks.

If it was as superior as you say it would be replacing subways but the reality is no one is buying it because it is inferior to subways and even inferior to LRT. Monorail salesmen need to stop being dishonest and show the real world pictures of monorail with the station sky bunkers and switching tracks that blot out the sun.

 

[Duck]

Blotting out the sun, eh?

Yep, looks pretty dim and bleak to me. Certainly nowhere near as inviting as this lovely scene:

 

[Wrenkin]

Blotting out the sun, eh?

That's not a switching track.

 

[Duck]

Ah, the good ok' switch myth. Fair enough. Monorail switch, supported:

Monorail switch, suspended:

LRT catenary:

While Subway, LRT and Monorail all have different implementations and can go on "diets" to reduce their visual intrusion, none can get as slim as monorail, I'm afraid.

 

[Forgotten]

Blotting out the sun, eh?

So to fulfill some kind of monorail fetish and satisfy the illogical monorail lobby, you propose an illegal monorail installation?

Ah, the good ok' switch myth. Fair enough. Monorail switch, supported:

I said switch and station. They build them every 1.5-2km.

 

[cplchanb]

seems like this debate is about to get personal eh...

 

[ssiguy2]

No, just wanting it to get factual.

 

[Duck]

I guess this fits in this thread!

Toronto Zoo might get s new Monorail

Project Documents:

Official Proposal - Magnovate

Zoo Staff Report on Proposal

The City and Zoo will review the proposal on Thursday and report back in the summer.

TL;DR: A consortium of system partners (Stantec, Lockheed Martin, PCL and Magna) have offered to build a demonstration maglev line on top of the existing Bendix-Dashveyor AGT ("monorail") guideway at the Zoo. They would pay for it entirely so the zoo gets a free train. Stantec has already been on site to evaluate the guideway and have said its in excellent condition.

To me, this is a no brainer, even though it doesn't entirely align with the zoo's current master plan, which is ramping down operations in the Canadian Domain section of the park.