scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
^ The whole Sheppard Transfer City line is silly.
|
|
|
Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)
- Thread starter Le Gique
- Start date
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Now THERE's an idea!
Too bad they took down the monorail tracks. A little bit of techiical effort and maybe we could have had something that ran from Downsview clear to the bison enclosure...
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
My favourite bit in the EA is when they said they modelled both 800m and 400m stop spacing and found that they might as well go with 400m spacing since the vehicles were going to stop at all the red lights, anyway. Three cheers for "rapid" transit!
They also bash wider stop spacing on the basis that more people will be boarding/exiting at fewer stops, increasing the time vehicles are actually stopped for riders, yet this concern isn't raised when they discuss halving the frequency by coupling vehicles, even though the results are exactly the same (vehicles will be stopping for riders for twice as long).
They also bash wider stop spacing on the basis that more people will be boarding/exiting at fewer stops, increasing the time vehicles are actually stopped for riders, yet this concern isn't raised when they discuss halving the frequency by coupling vehicles, even though the results are exactly the same (vehicles will be stopping for riders for twice as long).
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
My favourite bit in the EA is when they said they modelled both 800m and 400m stop spacing and found that they might as well go with 400m spacing since the vehicles were going to stop at all the red lights, anyway. Three cheers for "rapid" transit!
They also bash wider stop spacing on the basis that more people will be boarding/exiting at fewer stops, increasing the time vehicles are actually stopped for riders, yet this concern isn't raised when they discuss halving the frequency by coupling vehicles, even though the results are exactly the same (vehicles will be stopping for riders for twice as long).
They also bash wider stop spacing on the basis that more people will be boarding/exiting at fewer stops, increasing the time vehicles are actually stopped for riders, yet this concern isn't raised when they discuss halving the frequency by coupling vehicles, even though the results are exactly the same (vehicles will be stopping for riders for twice as long).
threnody
Active Member
Transit City routes are supposed to have level all-door boarding. Which means running coupled vehicles shouldn't increase boarding time at all.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
We'll see...remember that the issue isn't just how long it takes X number of people to board, it's whether or not the platforms are designed so that people will be standing evenly along it, or whether or not coupled vehicles will have a better or worse time hitting red lights, etc.
edit - just look at the SRT to see how all-door boarding doesn't help in the slightest when design obstacles like escalator placement need to be overcome. At a glance that may not seem relevant to a Transfer City line, but which of the coupled vehicles will be more desirable? Will the front one be closer to more intersections and/or the connection to the subway? Will the platform be designed to spread people along its length or won't it? Unlike downtown streets, you're not going to get a lot of people darting across Sheppard to access the end of a platform farthest from the intersection (the one where fewer people would be waiting to get on).
Last edited:
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
The internal circulation of passengers on an LRT platform is quite abysmal, particularly in the wintertime. Most passengers on crowded Spadina platforms simply use the tracks as their own pedestrian mezzanine before stepping onto the platform, proper.
One thing that LRT advocates (and the TTC) routinely fail to acknowledge is that the design of these stops encourages rampant jaywalking and relatively dangerous pedestrian crossings. Considering that half of all transfers from the LRT to a connecting bus stop requires crossing an intersection twice, I imagine that many people will dart across Sheppard on a red light to make a hasty connection. I would not be surprised if pedestrian fatalities on Sheppard rise precipitously once the line opens.
One thing that LRT advocates (and the TTC) routinely fail to acknowledge is that the design of these stops encourages rampant jaywalking and relatively dangerous pedestrian crossings. Considering that half of all transfers from the LRT to a connecting bus stop requires crossing an intersection twice, I imagine that many people will dart across Sheppard on a red light to make a hasty connection. I would not be surprised if pedestrian fatalities on Sheppard rise precipitously once the line opens.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Heh, either they won't dart across Sheppard, or they will...and die in the process.
wyliepoon
Senior Member
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...-avenue-east-anxiety-over-a-transit-plan.aspx
On Sheppard Avenue East, anxiety over a transit plan
Posted: January 08, 2009, 5:14 PM by Rob Roberts
The TTC this year embarks on construction of Transit City, its plan to build a 120-kilometre network of light rail lines over the next 15 years. Peter Kuitenbrouwer begins a series of columns on the $8-billion project, which is almost entirely unfunded and remains largely a leap of faith for city hall.
At first glance, Sheppard Avenue, running east from Highway 404 through Scarborough toward the zoo, seems an unlikely place to pioneer Toronto’s light rail revolution.
The street is filled with car dealerships: Agincourt Nissan, Brimell Toyota, Scarborotown Jeep Chrysler Dogde, Hogan Chevrolet, Go Go Auto Sales, Ford Eastcourt and AAA Cars, plus gas stations and body shops. A sprawling Canadian Tire, fronted by a prodigious parking lot, dominates the corner of Sheppard and McCowan Road.
This is car country. And this is also ground zero for Transit City. The Toronto Transit Commission will soon start digging up Sheppard this year in the first phase of the plan, which will banish cars from the two centre lanes of this avenue along 14 kilometres, forevermore.
No wonder the natives are restless.
“The TTC are being very co-operative but I also believe that, on their best day, it’s going to be a train wreck for business,†says George Markakos (pictured above), owner of Joey Bravo’s, an Italian pasta and steak house his father founded 36 years ago, on Sheppard Avenue just west of McCowan. He has 44 parking spaces.
The Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area mailed out a news release the other day warning that, “revenues lost as a result of LRT construction will threaten the existence of many small and family-owned businesses in Sheppard East Village -- and bankruptcy may be their only option.â€
Mr. Markakos also points out that, once the job is done, the right-of-way down the centre of Sheppard will force eastbound motorists to drive half a kilometre past his restaurant, then make a u-turn and double back to come for dinner. As for transit users, whose light rail vehicles will still stop at all traffic lights (as the Sheppard bus does now), “I’m not sure how much time you’re going to save,†he says.
The BIA folks say that, about a year ago, Mr. Giambrone convoked them to an emergency meeting, held at Brimell Toyota. He announced the TTC had picked Sheppard for the first LRT. He did not ask their opinion; instead he brought a box of LRT buttons for them to wear. Most left the buttons at the meeting.
“Giambrone just showed up one day and dropped this bomb on us,†says Mark Bozian, owner of Brimell Toyota, who recently invested $7-million in his business. He pays $30,000 a month in business property tax, he says.
Mr. Giambrone responded to my questions by releasing the BIA’s letter to him of March, 2007, in which the business owners wrote, “there are many ... reasons why this part of the TTC plan makes sense and ought to have priority status in any rapid transit development.â€
Yes, say the business owners, we support the goal. But they do fear that the TTC is rushing into this project without a clear plan. Indeed, look more closely at the Sheppard light rail project and strange details emerge:
•The city does not have the money to build the line. “Metrolinx [the provincial transportation planning agency] has supported the Sheppard line,†Mr. Giambrone says. “We have the money to commence the work in 2009. None of the money will come from the city.†(Metrolinx has asked the province to put $55-million in its budget this year for Sheppard; the province has the last say).
•The TTC has still not decided how the line will connect to the Sheppard subway, which ends at Don Mills Road. Either the TTC will extend the subway one station west to Consumers Road, tunneling under Highway 404, or run the LRT east, either in a tunnel or at grade, under the highway to Don Mills.
• The TTC apparently still has not decided how to run the LRT under a train bridge east of Midland, where the LRT may have to merge with car traffic to fit.
• There is no clear plan to connect the new line to the Scarborough rapid transit line, which is on the other side of Highway 401.
• The TTC has not ordered cars for the line.
• The price is rising. In March, 2007, a TTC report said the Sheppard line would cost $555-million, including vehicles. Today Mr. Giambrone says it will cost $800-million.
Because of the complexities on the west bit of this project, the TTC has decided to build from the east, which means some parts of Sheppard will have a train-only strip down their centre for years before anyone sees a train.
Few locals around here have heard of the plan, but many supported the idea when I told them about it. At Canadian Tire, I talked to Bob Drummond -- who had bought a lunch box for his job at the Cadbury Adams candy factory in Scarborough.
“If people don’t have cars it’s going to give them options, they can get downtown, it’s not going to be Scarberia anymore,†he says.
Greg Toth, who was eating a burger at the Agincourt Mall, is not so sure. He moved here four years ago from Florida; after two years struggling on the TTC, he bought a 1994 Mercury Topaz, which he uses to around Scarborough. He’s wary of the light rail deam.
“I’m very suspect about the TTC’s ability to make proper decisions,†he said.
*****
While I don't care much about what businesses on Sheppard say about the disruption caused by LRT construction (they'd probably react the same way to a subway line), I just think it's hilarious the way the TTC is pitching the LRT scheme to the businesses according to the above article.
On Sheppard Avenue East, anxiety over a transit plan
Posted: January 08, 2009, 5:14 PM by Rob Roberts
The TTC this year embarks on construction of Transit City, its plan to build a 120-kilometre network of light rail lines over the next 15 years. Peter Kuitenbrouwer begins a series of columns on the $8-billion project, which is almost entirely unfunded and remains largely a leap of faith for city hall.
At first glance, Sheppard Avenue, running east from Highway 404 through Scarborough toward the zoo, seems an unlikely place to pioneer Toronto’s light rail revolution.
The street is filled with car dealerships: Agincourt Nissan, Brimell Toyota, Scarborotown Jeep Chrysler Dogde, Hogan Chevrolet, Go Go Auto Sales, Ford Eastcourt and AAA Cars, plus gas stations and body shops. A sprawling Canadian Tire, fronted by a prodigious parking lot, dominates the corner of Sheppard and McCowan Road.
This is car country. And this is also ground zero for Transit City. The Toronto Transit Commission will soon start digging up Sheppard this year in the first phase of the plan, which will banish cars from the two centre lanes of this avenue along 14 kilometres, forevermore.
No wonder the natives are restless.
“The TTC are being very co-operative but I also believe that, on their best day, it’s going to be a train wreck for business,†says George Markakos (pictured above), owner of Joey Bravo’s, an Italian pasta and steak house his father founded 36 years ago, on Sheppard Avenue just west of McCowan. He has 44 parking spaces.
The Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area mailed out a news release the other day warning that, “revenues lost as a result of LRT construction will threaten the existence of many small and family-owned businesses in Sheppard East Village -- and bankruptcy may be their only option.â€
Mr. Markakos also points out that, once the job is done, the right-of-way down the centre of Sheppard will force eastbound motorists to drive half a kilometre past his restaurant, then make a u-turn and double back to come for dinner. As for transit users, whose light rail vehicles will still stop at all traffic lights (as the Sheppard bus does now), “I’m not sure how much time you’re going to save,†he says.
The BIA folks say that, about a year ago, Mr. Giambrone convoked them to an emergency meeting, held at Brimell Toyota. He announced the TTC had picked Sheppard for the first LRT. He did not ask their opinion; instead he brought a box of LRT buttons for them to wear. Most left the buttons at the meeting.
“Giambrone just showed up one day and dropped this bomb on us,†says Mark Bozian, owner of Brimell Toyota, who recently invested $7-million in his business. He pays $30,000 a month in business property tax, he says.
Mr. Giambrone responded to my questions by releasing the BIA’s letter to him of March, 2007, in which the business owners wrote, “there are many ... reasons why this part of the TTC plan makes sense and ought to have priority status in any rapid transit development.â€
Yes, say the business owners, we support the goal. But they do fear that the TTC is rushing into this project without a clear plan. Indeed, look more closely at the Sheppard light rail project and strange details emerge:
•The city does not have the money to build the line. “Metrolinx [the provincial transportation planning agency] has supported the Sheppard line,†Mr. Giambrone says. “We have the money to commence the work in 2009. None of the money will come from the city.†(Metrolinx has asked the province to put $55-million in its budget this year for Sheppard; the province has the last say).
•The TTC has still not decided how the line will connect to the Sheppard subway, which ends at Don Mills Road. Either the TTC will extend the subway one station west to Consumers Road, tunneling under Highway 404, or run the LRT east, either in a tunnel or at grade, under the highway to Don Mills.
• The TTC apparently still has not decided how to run the LRT under a train bridge east of Midland, where the LRT may have to merge with car traffic to fit.
• There is no clear plan to connect the new line to the Scarborough rapid transit line, which is on the other side of Highway 401.
• The TTC has not ordered cars for the line.
• The price is rising. In March, 2007, a TTC report said the Sheppard line would cost $555-million, including vehicles. Today Mr. Giambrone says it will cost $800-million.
Because of the complexities on the west bit of this project, the TTC has decided to build from the east, which means some parts of Sheppard will have a train-only strip down their centre for years before anyone sees a train.
Few locals around here have heard of the plan, but many supported the idea when I told them about it. At Canadian Tire, I talked to Bob Drummond -- who had bought a lunch box for his job at the Cadbury Adams candy factory in Scarborough.
“If people don’t have cars it’s going to give them options, they can get downtown, it’s not going to be Scarberia anymore,†he says.
Greg Toth, who was eating a burger at the Agincourt Mall, is not so sure. He moved here four years ago from Florida; after two years struggling on the TTC, he bought a 1994 Mercury Topaz, which he uses to around Scarborough. He’s wary of the light rail deam.
“I’m very suspect about the TTC’s ability to make proper decisions,†he said.
*****
While I don't care much about what businesses on Sheppard say about the disruption caused by LRT construction (they'd probably react the same way to a subway line), I just think it's hilarious the way the TTC is pitching the LRT scheme to the businesses according to the above article.
andomano
Active Member
The only storage facility shown is at the Malvern Bus Garage. Isn't this already operating near or at capacity. Looking at the area on google maps, there isn't any room for expansion either.
Does anyone know about the locations of storage facilities?
Does anyone know about the locations of storage facilities?
drum118
Superstar
The yards are a separate EA and will depend on the type of land that can be obtain cheap.
The funny part to these yards, it will require lines not part of TC and open up another can of worms.
There was talk that Sheppard would have 2 yard since there was not enough land to house the fleet under one roof..............Oh!!!!!!was this for more than one line as I have lost track????.
If the SRT is to become LRT, the existing yard will solve some problem, but the exist building roof would have to be raise. $$$$$
drum118
Superstar
Going pantographs and using side pole is no problem at all.
Will be no more clutter than centre pole.
All you are doing, is off setting every other pole wire support to give it the twist.
Intersections will be like St Clair and Maybe, We Will get the taller poles that where supposed to be used there in the first place.
Dan416
Senior Member
If there's no time-savings, what's the point really?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Capacity and comfort for riders?
Sadly, Finch would actually make more sense and be a far better investment.
I just finished reading the EA. Their assessment, repeated several times in the document, that a subway would draw 5000 riders per hour is striking. Particularly, since they don't think that it's going to rise to the point where a subway is going to be needed. If that's the case, then I am starting to think that if the LRT is inevitable, then we might as well consider converting the subway to LRT and getting rid of the transfer.
Rainforest
Senior Member
There exists another option that should be considered at least. The current price tag for Sheppard E LRT is 800 m. What if those funds are used to extend the subway further east, instead of building the LRT line? For that amount, the subway would probably get to Sheppard and Warden.
Technically, such subway extension would cover a much shorter stretch than the LRT line, for the same cost. Nevertheless, the subway might be beneficial for a greater number of passengers, including those who do not live near it. People living further east near Sheppard, would get faster E-W trips since their bus would connect to subway sooner. The Finch E and Ellesmere bus routes could be reconfigured so that branches serving the eastern sections operate off the Sheppard subway terminus. Some passengers from Markham would be interested in using the subway, too.
In contrast, the LRT line as planned will be somewhat helpful for people living or working near Sheppard, but won't attract transfer passengers.
With the subway extension, the system would remain open for further upgrades (likely beyond the 25-year plan): both the subway further east and west, and LRT east of Agincourt.