Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

Neither am I, since it shouldn't be. Technically speaking, they haven't entered various algorithms correctly into the software, they might even have to rewrite some code. But I just buy a paper ticket, arguing with machines is tedious.

The algorithm isn't that complicated. It's simply a timed transfer, with some logic to block re-using the same route, or stations that are on your route.

Not according to your earlier missive on "single trips". The TTC is now the only system I'm familiar with where walking a segment of the journey you paid for is penalized. The vagaries of Presto besides to tabulate that correctly.

Montreal worked the same way when I lived there. But tell me what your origin and destination were again, perhaps I missed the point.

They had changed policy with the initial implementation of Presto, and now reversed it, at least in theory. They had the two hour policy in effect (if not on the books) until the beginning of this year.

Yes, for a few weeks - and they kept saying it was temporary until they updated the Presto programming.

 

[nfitz]

I also don't consider it stealing. I tap in because I am attempting to pay -- if the system deems "no fare", then so be it.

Absolutely. If you tap everywhere, and it gives you a freebie, you didn't do anything wrong. Bank error in your favour - collect $2.90.

The two-hour transfer is really already in effect, just not in plain view.

No it isn't - my card history is full of examples of multiple charges within the 2-hour window. It seems quite good at not letting you board the same route a second time within 2-hours without charging.

 

[nfitz]

In analyzing my discomfort when getting on the Cherry St bus at Cherry beach with my valid paper transfer, since the bus had no Presto machine, I was uncomfortable in having to make my case to the driver.

I'm confused - between which two routes were you transferring at Cherry Beach? As far as I know, only the 121 goes there - so how is that a walking transfer?

That's a return trip, surely.

 

[steveintoronto]

The algorithm isn't that complicated. It's simply a timed transfer, with some logic to block re-using the same route, or stations that are on your route.

"It's simply a timed transfer". Unfortunately not, or the repeats of problems when "booking through" in Brit talk wouldn't occur. The logic fault was in assuming that once you tap off, and tap on at a point not contiguous, it's another trip. It isn't. You are supposed to be charged from your beginning point, to the point that you make your final tap-off, within a three hour window. Once you tap onto another Presto client system as a co-fare, it automatically denies a tap on as the same contiguous trip from when you started. Even if there is no co-fare, as in the case of cycling the distance from Milton GO rail to Milton GO Park and Ride, it's also not programmed to realize that as a contiguous "book through". (I'm told Milton Transit have a bus that does that run, I'm sure the same problem exists, not to mention waiting for it to come to add time, You can cycle the distance in 10 or 12 mins) Thus the need to use a paper ticket if one wishes to avoid being charged for two separate trips. I can't be bothered anymore fussing with time and explanation phoning them up to get it straightened out. It's been over five or six times now. It's infuriating, since their claims that they will fix it never happens. It might even be fixed by now, too late, I'm the one now programmed to buy paper tickets.

But tell me what your origin and destination were again, perhaps I missed the point.

Broadview Station (Pay Presto) to Donlands, 83 bus to most southerly stop on Leslie, walk along lakeshore to Cherry St, (dog swam most of way, it was a very hot day, only way to keep him cool) 172B (which was waiting at Cherry Beach) to Fort York (a recent extension of the route not shown on most maps), walked from there to Bellwoods Park where I got dog wet again at off-leash area, got on Dundas streetcar and paid new fare with Presto. Spent approx thirty to forty minutes walking along lakefront, about 15 mins more than as if I had transferred to Queen car with waiting and went that way.

It seems quite good at not letting you board the same route a second time within 2-hours without charging.

That was discussed in this forum approx two months back, which is where I got the inspiration for doing this. Again, I'm not broke by any means, but I am frugal, and if I had to pay for each leg every time I got off to walk myself and dog, then the TTC can forget it. I'll use GO instead to do walking segments with dog.

What was pointed out a few months ago in this string is that you "don't tap back on the route you tapped on initially, and don't tap on the subway twice".

I'm confused - between which two routes were you transferring at Cherry Beach? As far as I know, only the 121 goes there - so how is that a walking transfer?

That's a return trip, surely.

From Broadview Station to Fort York? A "return trip"? Hardly....for the "return portion" I tapped on the Dundas car at Shaw and Dundas, and paid another fare.

 

[nfitz]

The 172 doesn't go to Cherry Beach. That's the 121 Fort York - Esplanade

And I don't see how that's not 3 trips. 1, to Cherry Beach park, 2 from Cherry Beach to another park. 3 go home.

The transfer rules are virtually unchanged for near a century. As it clearly says "Most direct route must be taken" and "cannot walk to next stop", I don't see how a paper transfer would possibly be valid.

Though I expect once Presto is fully rolled out in a few months, there'll be plenty of new ways to game the system - accidently or not. And the 86-132 and then 505 within 2 hours might end up being just one fare.

 

[crs1026]

No it isn't - my card history is full of examples of multiple charges within the 2-hour window. It seems quite good at not letting you board the same route a second time within 2-hours without charging.

True, it's not a complete 2-hour transfer. It does let you transfer to a different route however, so if your stopover is at a transfer point, you win.

I rode the 66 to Humber and the 501 across town to Queen and Broadview to make a quick purchase. It was a congested and hot day, so rather than take 501 westward to get home I grabbed a 504 to the subway. The 504 tap-on was accepted as a transfer. I got to Old Mill, tapped on the 66 bus, and it charged me a fare. Not sure if the 2 hour rule, or the perverse route that began with a tap-on on the 66, triggered the second fare. Had I thought to get a transfer at Broadview Station, I could have avoided the second fare.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

I don't see how a paper transfer would possibly be valid.

The transfer is just *Proof of Payment*
I paid by Presto, that was the means of the fare payment, those are the terms that apply. The fact that the TTC couldn't honour the terms of Presto payment is their shortcoming, not mine. I presented the Presto card, they couldn't read it.

 

[LNahid2000]

The transfer is just *Proof of Payment*
I paid by Presto, that was the means of the fare payment, those are the terms that apply. The fact that the TTC couldn't honour the terms of Presto payment is their shortcoming, not mine. I presented the Presto card, they couldn't read it.

Huh? Proof of payment does not apply on buses, and Presto is not guaranteed on buses yet. The 121 isn't yet a Presto enabled route so you're expected to have a fare or valid transfer for your trip.

https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/PRESTO/PRESTO_Bus.jsp
https://www.ttc.ca/Routes/Buses.jsp

 

[TransitBart]

The transfer is just *Proof of Payment*
I paid by Presto, that was the means of the fare payment, those are the terms that apply. The fact that the TTC couldn't honour the terms of Presto payment is their shortcoming, not mine. I presented the Presto card, they couldn't read it.

Without prejudice to @steveintoronto here, this nonsense must be costing a small fortune.

 

[steveintoronto]

So if you have a transfer, then you're not required to tap onto the next vehicle with your Presto card?

Without prejudice to @steveintoronto here, this nonsense must be costing a small fortune.

The TTC is losing money, like a lot of other systems, because people are taking alternatives, or just not travelling like they used to.

I'll be walking and cycling a lot more, and taking GO and regional carriers, who do allow non-contiguous trips. How's that for choice? People like me must be costing the TTC a fortune. I blame Presto myself.

Where have all the transit riders gone?
Canada’s major transit authorities are reporting stagnating ridership numbers and they can’t quite figure out why. As Bill Curry reports, lower numbers means less revenue, which may saddle some systems with budget shortfalls

ities across Canada are reporting stagnation and even declines in public transit ridership and officials candidly admit they aren’t exactly sure what’s going on.

Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Saskatoon, Calgary and Vancouver are among the cities to report a levelling-off of ridership. The Toronto Transit Commission – which, like many other transit systems, had been on a steady ridership climb for years – recently reported that 2015 numbers fell short of expectations and 2016 may show a year-over-year decline.

The commission is warning of a potential $30-million budget shortfall.

The challenging ridership numbers come at an unprecedented moment for public transit in Canada. Cities are trying to cover the operating costs of existing transit systems at the same time as they rush to prepare ambitious expansion plans to capture the billions now on offer from federal and provincial infrastructure programs.

The federal government has said it will take a hands-off approach to doling out its infrastructure cash, transferring it to cities based on ridership and largely leaving it up to cities and provinces to decide on priority projects.

While the federal government is now willing to cover up to 50 per cent of the cost to build new transit lines and extensions, it will ultimately be up to municipalities to produce reasonable ridership forecasts or risk having to cover the operating shortfall for years to come.

“The overall trend we’re seeing in Canada and in the U.S. is ridership is stagnating or [showing] modest growth. That’s the trend,” said Patrick Leclerc, president and CEO of the Canadian Urban Transit Association, which is made up of transit operators from across the country. The association recently held its annual general meeting in Halifax, where ridership issues were discussed.

“The growth is not as strong as it was about five or six years ago. The last decade was major growth. Now it’s slowing down. We are doing the analysis to understand what is happening in each region,” he said.

Limited data on the reasons for the shift mean transit officials are left to speculate as to potential causes. The TTC’s analysis concluded that the slowing economy and employment were the main factors, as well as a recent fare increase.[...]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ficials-across-canadastumped/article30178600/

Meantime:

Provincial service expansion plan could be boon for GO Transit: report
Oliver Moore - URBAN TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

TORONTO — The Globe and Mail

Published Tuesday, Mar. 29, 2016 9:31PM EDT

Last updated Tuesday, Mar. 29, 2016 9:33PM EDT


Provincial plans for a big expansion of GO Transit service could lead to a massive increase in riders, and would bring in each of those new passengers for much less than the current pace of expansion, according to a report for the provincial agency Metrolinx.

The report, an initial business case that was completed last year by outside consultants and quietly posted online in recent days, said there was “strong evidence” that the province’s plan to expand GO, known as Regional Express Rail (RER), “would benefit the region.”

Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig was not available on Tuesday afternoon to answer questions on the report. In a statement, the agency said the new report was a key step.

“In the coming months, Metrolinx experts will be refining the costs and benefits of the RER program to develop an Intermediate Business Case,” the statement, from spokeswoman Anne Marie Aikins, said. “The Intermediate Business Case will further refine [and] evaluate the strategic fit, planning, economics and finance, and delivery and operations of GO’s RER program.”

The provincial government ran for re-election in part on RER, a promise to electrify the GO rail network and move to more frequent service.

Early work on this expansion has already begun and some analyses have been released, but many details remain to be seen. The new report fills in some of them.

According to the consultants, the $13.5-billion RER would lead to 135-per-cent growth in GO ridership, from 54 million in 2014 to 127 million by 2029. Over the same period, they write, fare revenues would climb from $330-million to $770-million, even as operating expenses drop.

The consultants compare this with what they called the “base plan,” which would be continuing to expand the system to allow for natural growth, but not moving to an RER system. That would carry a price tag of $5-billion, spark a rise to 75 million riders and increase fare revenue to $460-million. [...]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-boon-for-go-transit-report/article29427820/

Yup, gotta be the Presto card. Can't be thinking like the TTC's...

 

[nfitz]

True, it's not a complete 2-hour transfer. It does let you transfer to a different route however, so if your stopover is at a transfer point, you win.

At a street corner sure - but that was always true.

But I tried a stopover on 504 at Broadview station, and paid twice.

I rode the 66 to Humber and the 501 across town to Queen and Broadview to make a quick purchase. It was a congested and hot day, so rather than take 501 westward to get home I grabbed a 504 to the subway. The 504 tap-on was accepted as a transfer. I got to Old Mill, tapped on the 66 bus, and it charged me a fare. Not sure if the 2 hour rule, or the perverse route that began with a tap-on on the 66, triggered the second fare.

Probably the 2nd 66. I had three consecutive trips today, all eastbound. First 514 and 501 (change at Sumach). (visited store at Broadview) Then 502. (stopped at dentist at Carlaw) Then another 501 followed by 502 (change at Kingston).

But the 2nd vehicle, it put a "0" instead of location, so my second 501 trip was a transfer - otherwise it would likely have been a new fare. But it finally nailed me for a new fare at Kingston on the 502.

Had I thought to get a transfer at Broadview Station, I could have avoided the second fare.

That strategy won't work for much longer. And there is a (small) chance a fare inspector will see you come up from the platform and take a transfer - I've seen them staking out Broadview before, inspecting the captive audience coming off the 504.

 

[nfitz]

The transfer is just *Proof of Payment*
I paid by Presto, that was the means of the fare payment, those are the terms that apply. The fact that the TTC couldn't honour the terms of Presto payment is their shortcoming, not mine. I presented the Presto card, they couldn't read it.

TTC says that the Presto transfer rules are identical to the paper transfer rules. There is absolutely no valid transfer at Cherry Beach under the current rules - whether they can read it or no is immaterial - it's a clear violation of the bylaw.

 

[steveintoronto]

Well, looks like you're "gaming" the system! Each one of those trips should have been a new fare.

Without prejudice to @steveintoronto here, this nonsense must be costing a small fortune.

Indeed! And Fitz is costing the system three times as much. Without prejudice, of course.

TTC says that the Presto transfer rules are identical to the paper transfer rules.

The existing transfer policy is purposely limited - transfers are only valid for a continuous one-way trip. Transfers must be used to transfer to the next available train or vehicle from a valid transfer point, which is usually a subway station or an on-street bus or streetcar stop at an intersecting route. Stopovers or return trips are not permitted,

Are you good for your word or not Fitz et al? Or is it a case of "Do as I say, not as I do?"

 

[TransitBart]

Are you good for your word or not Fitz et al? Or is it a case of "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Why ask this question? He can no more influence the PRESTO system than I can control the weather.

 

[crs1026]

That strategy won't work for much longer. And there is a (small) chance a fare inspector will see you come up from the platform and take a transfer - I've seen them staking out Broadview before, inspecting the captive audience coming off the 504.

You can't do that? I have been doing that since the beginning of time. (Literally the day Line 2 opened in 1966...... It took a friend and I all morning to go stop by stop and get an opening-day transfer from each station! )

I'm walking distance to Royal York, but take 66 from Old Mill if it's pouring rain. Habitually I don't get a transfer where I get on, but if it's raining when I get to Keele I hop off and get a transfer for the 66. Been doing that for decades.

- Paul