Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Steve X]

I could be wrong, but I thought all the new gates, system-wide, were the same height, and we'd seen the end of full-height turnstiles.

I got a feeling people will jump the fare gates if there aren't full height and no one is monitoring them. Although it would be more difficult given their height.

I also wonder how resilient are them if someone charged and rammed into the gates. They don't look brutal force-proof like compared to the fulling metal turnstiles we have now.

Edit: Maybe they are the same: https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...RESTO_Implementation_June 2015_FINAL_v2_0.pdf

Given the amount of space below the gate, I think most people will succeed in crawling under them. Fare evasion would go up.

 

[Jonny5]

Anyone else having delayed loading issues today?

I added money via the website on Sunday evening. I received the confirmation email at 4:47AM on Monday. At the GO station just after 6AM this morning the machine bleeped at me that I was out of funds. I had cash and loaded it manually (after waiting for some moron who took 5 minutes chit chatting with the one ticket agent while 6 of us waited in line with only minutes to go to the train). When I got to Union and tapped off it still didn't push the load onto my card.

That's well over 24 hours now. I am willing to give a bit of leeway on that stated turn around time, but since I often see a load push to the card in under 8 hours I am a wondering if there is a system problem.

I called the call center and they said there were no reports of problems, but recorded my information.

 

[P23]

I got a feeling people will jump the fare gates if there aren't full height and no one is monitoring them. Although it would be more difficult given their height.

I also wonder how resilient are them if someone charged and rammed into the gates. They don't look brutal force-proof like compared to the fulling metal turnstiles we have now.

Edit: Maybe they are the same: https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2015/June_22/Reports/TTC_PRESTO_Implementation_June 2015_FINAL_v2_0.pdf

Given the amount of space below the gate, I think most people will succeed in crawling under them. Fare evasion would go up.

I'm underweight and I doubt I could squeeze under. There may be people hopping over but fare evasion is unavoidable and needs to be met with fare checks and fines, which the TTC has never really committed to. Eliminating full height gates also lets people with strollers, bikes, pets etc. use unstaffed entrances. Not that it stopped them before, they just got stuck and wasted staff time extricating them.

 

[nfitz]

I'm underweight and I doubt I could squeeze under. There may be people hopping over but fare evasion is unavoidable and needs to be met with fare checks and fines, which the TTC has never really committed to.

I think we were more discussing hopping the gates if one had a valid Metropass, but there was no reader.

One solution would be putting a chip in the final few months of Metropasses, that would also activate the gates from the Presto reader.

 

[Megaton327]

When I got to Union and tapped off it still didn't push the load onto my card.

When at Union, try inserting your card into one of the self-serve reload kiosks when something like this happens. They are located in the Bay West and York West teamways, 2 are on the north side of the TTC station, and 2 are in the west side of the york concourse roughly west of the platform 10-11 elevators. They generally update within a few minutes of the confirmation e-mail--my understanding is this is due to needing a live internet connection to process debit/credit transactions, and generally being a newer design.

It's definitely an issue when something happens and this obviously shouldn't have to be the solution given the scarcity of these system-wide, but just for your own sake, give it a shot.

 

[Megaton327]

I think we were more discussing hopping the gates if one had a valid Metropass, but there was no reader.

One solution would be putting a chip in the final few months of Metropasses, that would also activate the gates from the Presto reader.

The problem with that is that Presto, as far as I know, isn't designed to do that...all cards must have a fare classification and pay a fare; the closest I can imagine is giving Metropasses with a child-programmed Presto chip on it so it deducts $0. The problem with that is that they would never expire! I guess fare inspectors on streetcars could still ding people on the visible expired metropass, but subways and surface vehicles via subway station paper transfer machines would be fare game...for that matter, buses and old streetcars where you get a paper transfer from the driver after tapping would be fine too (LFLRV machines encode fare category e.g. child when producing a Presto transfer).

I think it's much more likely that they will simply continue to put metropass readers at all faregates. I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't, but the TTC has been known to make stupid choices before...I might even drop by Sherbourne today to check, this is bothering me

And at any rate, this is only an issue for 7 months! From the fancy collectible metropass series they're doing this year, I'm of the understanding that there will be no January 2017 metropass, even. Tokens and Tickets will potentially stick around for a short time but passes are going. If the metropass vs. presto reader on the gates is as modular as it looks and as people have reported, keeping ~25% pass readers shouldn't be terribly hard.

 

[Megaton327]

Unfortunately I couldn't make it to Sherbourne today to check if the faregates take Metropasses or not...it occurred to me that in the absence of a press release I don't believe they've actually finished work there, but then again maybe the hoarding is down and this report comes from people seeing the visible-but-unusable gates.

On another note, I pulled up my transaction history on a Presto Self-Serve Reload Kiosk today, and I noticed that tap-on/tap-offs on GO transit were being amalgamated. For instance instead of showing GO $5.30 then GO $2.00 as a separate line item a few minutes later, it would show just a single line for both, reading GO $7.30. Makes sense given the smaller screen of the devices. As others have pointed out, while any respectable accounting department should really be able to put two and two together, it would be nice if the online transaction history at least had the option to summarize charges vs breaking out the tap on and tap off events+fare inspections+etc. Anyways, this is the first time I've ever seen any official Presto interface displaying it this way.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The hoarding wasn't down on thursday, or at least not for the main entrance.. It may have been down on the secondary entrance.

 

[Catenary]

The problem with that is that Presto, as far as I know, isn't designed to do that...all cards must have a fare classification and pay a fare; the closest I can imagine is giving Metropasses with a child-programmed Presto chip on it so it deducts $0. The problem with that is that they would never expire! I guess fare inspectors on streetcars could still ding people on the visible expired metropass, but subways and surface vehicles via subway station paper transfer machines would be fare game...for that matter, buses and old streetcars where you get a paper transfer from the driver after tapping would be fine too (LFLRV machines encode fare category e.g. child when producing a Presto transfer).

Ottawa is trialing a PRESTO and Multi compatible farecard integrated into the U-Pass this summer. I have some suspicions that the card is based on the Multi system instead of the PRESTO system, but nothing would stop the TTC from doing something similar in a stopgap situation.

 

[MetroMan]

I got a feeling people will jump the fare gates if there aren't full height and no one is monitoring them. Although it would be more difficult given their height.
(...)
Given the amount of space below the gate, I think most people will succeed in crawling under them. Fare evasion would go up.

The entire system is becoming POP. At any moment, any rider can be asked to provide proof of payment. Fare gates aren't the easiest fare evasion access point. That would be a streetcar or bus. Walk into the streetcar a stop before a subway and get in without paying. The full height turnstiles wouldn't help with that so it's more beneficial that they be converted to the much more accessible fare gates.

It should be noted that these gates will be monitored like all others in that station managers will be walking around the entire station now. There won't be workers in a booth so any fare gate is subject to being hopped over or crawled under while TTC workers aren't in that area at the time.

 

[cplchanb]

The entire system is becoming POP. At any moment, any rider can be asked to provide proof of payment. Fare gates aren't the easiest fare evasion access point. That would be a streetcar or bus. Walk into the streetcar a stop before a subway and get in without paying. The full height turnstiles wouldn't help with that so it's more beneficial that they be converted to the much more accessible fare gates.

It should be noted that these gates will be monitored like all others in that station managers will be walking around the entire station now. There won't be workers in a booth so any fare gate is subject to being hopped over or crawled under while TTC workers aren't in that area at the time.

and for that reason is why fare by distance and tapping out of the system is the better way to go. That way even if fare evaders jump the surface vehicles and sneak on the subway they will be caught at the gate trying to leave the system.

edit: saw and fixed my deplorable midday grammar errors

 

[MetroMan]

and for that reason is why fare by distance and tapping out of the system is the better way to go. That way if fare evaders will be caught at the gate trying to leave the system.

Good point. Two opportunities of being caught either by a TTC employee or by a camera will discourage fare evaders. I think that there will be a net drop in fare evasion once POP is fully implemented throughout the system.

 

[nfitz]

and for that reason is why fare by distance and tapping out of the system is the better way to go. That way even if fare evaders jump the surface vehicles and sneak on the subway they will be caught at the gate trying to leave the system.

With tapout already required starting in 2017, I'm not sure why fare-by-distance is part of the discussion on this issue.

 

[Megaton327]

With tapout already required starting in 2017, I'm not sure why fare-by-distance is part of the discussion on this issue.

I wonder what the odds are of the TTC having faregates with Presto system-wide, activating the tapout requirement, and not immediately moving to fare by distance as a money grab.

I'm going to take a crazy, crazy guess and say zero.

Agreed that it is not necessary as far as this discussion (tapouts increasing the opportunity to catch fare evaders) goes, but realistically it will be implemented.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I wonder what the odds are of the TTC having faregates with Presto system-wide, activating the tapout requirement, and not immediately moving to fare by distance as a money grab.

I'm going to take a crazy, crazy guess and say zero.

Agreed that it is not necessary as far as this discussion (tapouts increasing the opportunity to catch fare evaders) goes, but realistically it will be implemented.

I think if they do start fare by distance it will be around the time thath the subway extension opens up