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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

I have heard reports of people who failed to tap off at Union, but tapping onto TTC, phoning Presto and getting a credit on the basis that they clearly didn't go to the end of the line. Though if you board at somewhere like Bronte and travel to Union, you already are paying to the end of the line (they don't seem to mix Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West up - or they didn't the last time someone forgot to tap off with my card).
 
I have heard reports of people who failed to tap off at Union, but tapping onto TTC, phoning Presto and getting a credit on the basis that they clearly didn't go to the end of the line. Though if you board at somewhere like Bronte and travel to Union, you already are paying to the end of the line (they don't seem to mix Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West up - or they didn't the last time someone forgot to tap off with my card).
Yeah, this is kind of what I was wondering. Is the "end of the line" for Lakeshore West heading eastbbound and Lakeshore East heading westbound considered to be Union?

Many Lakeshore trains don't actually continue through, and go out of service at Union.
 
Yeah, this is kind of what I was wondering. Is the "end of the line" for Lakeshore West heading eastbbound and Lakeshore East heading westbound considered to be Union?

Many Lakeshore trains don't actually continue through, and go out of service at Union.
Actually, looking at the fare calculator, I'm not sure. The example was from Exhibition, and I noticed they charged to Hamilton (or was it Aldershot, can't remember), rather than to Oshawa. But I'm just noticing (currently at least) that Oshawa is cheaper from Exhibition than either Aldershot or Hamilton. So I'll just say I don't know.

I guess it's an even bigger question from Union. Say you took the train to Oriole, the end of the line is $6.06 at Richmond Hill. But how do they know you didn't go to Kitchener ($16.38) or Niagara Falls ($23.09).

Bottom line is - I'm no longer sure what they charge - particularly from Union.
 
Which then becomes a problem for hundreds of people when you hold up the line arguing with them about it. I'm not going to be that person who pisses off rush hour crowds over a point of principle. Far easier to just grab a transfer until they get it all sorted out.

And how about when the TTC switches to presto completely and there are no paper transfers, plus everybody with a metropass, token, or ticket is instead using presto? It is going to be an even bigger problem then, once they "get it all sorted out". If anything they should be MORE eager to check your presto card now that so few people are using them. And at any rate, interpretations of by-law 1 aside, if they give you trouble you can always call the police and press charges for harassment--additionally, if they try to somehow charge you under by-law 1, under some interpretation of the wording, no judge in the country will even HEAR that case, when the fare inspectors have the checking device on their belt and refuse to use it to check your fare!

Actually, looking at the fare calculator, I'm not sure. The example was from Exhibition, and I noticed they charged to Hamilton (or was it Aldershot, can't remember), rather than to Oshawa. But I'm just noticing (currently at least) that Oshawa is cheaper from Exhibition than either Aldershot or Hamilton. So I'll just say I don't know.

I guess it's an even bigger question from Union. Say you took the train to Oriole, the end of the line is $6.06 at Richmond Hill. But how do they know you didn't go to Kitchener ($16.38) or Niagara Falls ($23.09).

Bottom line is - I'm no longer sure what they charge - particularly from Union.

You're right, tapping on at Union, they would definitely not bill you to Richmond Hill, they'd certainly choose somewhere like Kitchener. However, I'm inclined to somewhat doubt they'd bill you to Niagara Falls--since that train is only seasonal+weekends, their system would need to be set up to only charge that as your final destination on certain days of the year; if we've learned anything about presto's systems so far, I think we can all probably agree that's too much for them. There's always the "let's screw customers over" mindset, of course, where maybe they bill it to Niagara Falls even on winter weekdays when the station isn't in service, just because it has presto readers technically, but I'm inclined to doubt quite that level of malice...incompetence, possibly, but I still doubt it.

I would be inclined to believe they would bill you to whatever the most expensive trip is excluding St Catharines or Niagara Falls--Allandale, Kitchener, or West Harbour, probably Kitchener if I recall my fares correctly. Also, if you call them, you could of course say hey, I travelled on a weekend, the Kitchener line isn't running, or West Harbour isn't in service, please at least just charge me to Aldershot; which I think would be a reasonable request and it sounds like they're flexible on forgetting to tap off. Or, of course, if you tap on to Viva at Langstaff, or MiWay at Port Credit, or whatnot--depends on whether that agency embeds location data, reasonably accurately, in their taps--that's pretty strong evidence you only went so far.

I think it's a bit of a shame that the system isn't built to allow a tap-on with YRT/VIVA, TTC, MiWay, a GO Bus, or what have you to double as a GO Train tap-off, but such is life. I've never forgotten, fortunately.
 
And how about when the TTC switches to presto completely and there are no paper transfers, plus everybody with a metropass, token, or ticket is instead using presto? It is going to be an even bigger problem then, once they "get it all sorted out". If anything they should be MORE eager to check your presto card now that so few people are using them. And at any rate, interpretations of by-law 1 aside, if they give you trouble you can always call the police and press charges for harassment--additionally, if they try to somehow charge you under by-law 1, under some interpretation of the wording, no judge in the country will even HEAR that case, when the fare inspectors
At that point, they will have Presto readers so we won't need a TTC person fumbling with a hand-held scanner, so no it won't be a bigger problem. As posted by someone else, when the TTC staff was checking the Presto card as POP, he/she wasn't familiar with how to use the device, causing unnecessary delays for everyone. So again, faster (for now) to just take a transfer.

And I want to get where I'm going. I don't want to a) hold up a crowd of people while I educate a TTC employee and then have to call the police and b) wait around for the police to show up and c) waste TPS's time when I can just grab a transfer and be on my way.

I'm looking forward to the time when Presto is fully implemented and I don't have to take that transfer but for now, whether I theoretically need it or not, it's just the simplest option.
 
At that point, they will have Presto readers so we won't need a TTC person fumbling with a hand-held scanner, so no it won't be a bigger problem. As posted by someone else, when the TTC staff was checking the Presto card as POP, he/she wasn't familiar with how to use the device, causing unnecessary delays for everyone. So again, faster (for now) to just take a transfer.

And I want to get where I'm going. I don't want to a) hold up a crowd of people while I educate a TTC employee and then have to call the police and b) wait around for the police to show up and c) waste TPS's time when I can just grab a transfer and be on my way.

I'm looking forward to the time when Presto is fully implemented and I don't have to take that transfer but for now, whether I theoretically need it or not, it's just the simplest option.

I'm not sure what you mean by having presto readers--the TTC staff will indeed have hand-held scanners for checking POP. That is the presto reader. They will board streetcars, or wait on the platform at the terminus station, and inspect fares--and presto cards--as they do today.
 
So to get back to my point about a TTC patron who uses the system 100X a month.............clearly the TTC is cheaper and probably easier not having to worry about all this tap-in-tap-out shit. So obviously if I was such a Torontonian I wouldn't need a PRESTO card and in fact would go out of my way not to get one and instead get the Metropass. Therefore if this is the case does that mean that I wouldn't get the $8 reduction of fare when using the UPX or do you get the same reduction if you have a Metropass?
 
So to get back to my point about a TTC patron who uses the system 100X a month.............clearly the TTC is cheaper and probably easier not having to worry about all this tap-in-tap-out shit. So obviously if I was such a Torontonian I wouldn't need a PRESTO card and in fact would go out of my way not to get one and instead get the Metropass. Therefore if this is the case does that mean that I wouldn't get the $8 reduction of fare when using the UPX or do you get the same reduction if you have a Metropass?
I really don't think you are looking at this correctly. Presently you are right, for a frequent/regular TTC user there is currently no financial incentive to switch from the current pass to Presto....and, appropriately, the TTC is not pushing/suggesting to that user that they switch.

When they develop and implement their Presto fare plan that incentive may exist and that is when there would a push to get people to switch.

No, a metropass does not get you the Presto fare on UP.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by having presto readers--the TTC staff will indeed have hand-held scanners for checking POP. That is the presto reader. They will board streetcars, or wait on the platform at the terminus station, and inspect fares--and presto cards--as they do today.
Will there not be actual floor mounted readers where you would tap your card and it will know that you are transferring and won't deduct a second fare within a certain timeframe? I'm thinking of the faregates as described in http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss...RESTO_Implementation_June 2015_FINAL_v2_0.pdf, eliminating the need for staff with handheld scanners and eliminating the need for transfers. So, if I get on the King car and tap on, and then I go into the King subway station and tap on, it knows I'm still on the same trip.
 
So to get back to my point about a TTC patron who uses the system 100X a month.............clearly the TTC is cheaper and probably easier not having to worry about all this tap-in-tap-out shit. So obviously if I was such a Torontonian I wouldn't need a PRESTO card and in fact would go out of my way not to get one and instead get the Metropass.
They've already announced they'll discontinue separate Metropasses, tickets, and tokens in 16 months time. I suppose that could slip a few months ... but once the readers are everywhere, it's Presto or $3 cash.

What tap-out shit? There's no tapping out required on TTC - or on any other municipal transit system in the GTA.
 
Will there not be actual floor mounted readers where you would tap your card and it will know that you are transferring and won't deduct a second fare within a certain timeframe? I'm thinking of the faregates as described in http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2015/June_22/Reports/TTC_PRESTO_Implementation_June 2015_FINAL_v2_0.pdf, eliminating the need for staff with handheld scanners and eliminating the need for transfers. So, if I get on the King car and tap on, and then I go into the King subway station and tap on, it knows I'm still on the same trip.

There are faregates there. At union there are no faregates--the streetcar lets you out in the fare paid part of the station on the Yonge subway platform. There are fare inspectors standing there sometimes, same with Spadina station, to do a random POP check. This is the exact same, fundamentally, as them boarding a streetcar at a random surface stop.
 
I'm quite familiar with Union. That's why I didn't use it as an example. I used an example of where a transfer is currently required.
 
So if you ride the TTC a hundred times a month you don't get a UPX reduced fare but if you buy a Presto card to use once a year then you get the reduced UPX fare.............hell of a way to get people to take transit by charging those who take the most with the biggest fare.

Am I the only one who sees how completely warped that is?
 
So if you ride the TTC a hundred times a month you don't get a UPX reduced fare but if you buy a Presto card to use once a year then you get the reduced UPX fare.............hell of a way to get people to take transit by charging those who take the most with the biggest fare.

Am I the only one who sees how completely warped that is?

A presto card is a one time $6 purchase. Even for the UPX, assuming you're making one round trip, it's $55 for the standard cash fare, or $44 with presto INCLUDING the purchase of a card. How is that charging those who take it the most with the biggest fare? If you have a metropass, there's nothing stopping you from also buying a presto card for use on UPX, GO, other GTA agencies, visiting friends/family on TTC, if you travel to Ottawa, etc.

Also, in the next 3 years or so the TTC will cease to have physical metropasses, tokens, and tickets, and exclusively have cash/debit/credit for single-ride fares, and presto for frequent riders, so current metropass users will need to have a presto card at that time anyways--and if you buy one now, it's not like it'll magically vanish into thin air when that change happens, you keep it and keep using it. There is no law that says if you have a metropass you can't also get a presto card. Boo hoo, you have to spend a one-time $6 fee and have another card in your wallet. So no, I really, really don't see how that's in any way warped.
 
So if you ride the TTC a hundred times a month you don't get a UPX reduced fare but if you buy a Presto card to use once a year then you get the reduced UPX fare.............hell of a way to get people to take transit by charging those who take the most with the biggest fare.

Am I the only one who sees how completely warped that is?

It's temporary situation. Soon the person taking TTC a hundred times a month will buy their monthly pass on Presto. Currently people who use Metropass have no reason to get or use Presto.
 

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