GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Toronto is the biggest fish in the pond, and Metrolinx needs to respect that, but it's not the only fish in the pond either.

Metrolinx wants to be the shark in the pond, not the bigger fish. They want everyone to use their precious pet project so they use the Ontario government to issue there's so they can fore it on them. Metrolinx and the Ontario government keep trying to force their own agenda on the TTC all the time, for example, the TTC pans an extension to York Universty and asks for fund Onatior stwpo in and ssays ected iot into Vaughn with no plans wahtsoever in palce on how to deal with the difrent fare between the two regions. Right now as I see it Fare integration is a pipe dream of people seem to be sold on. Like I said maybe it will happen but it's something that needs to be negotiated not forced with threats of funding by the government.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I'm just curious if multi-Zone systems are so good for public Transit why is Andy Byford who used to work for the London underground against it? If Toronto does go back to a zone system where do you draw the lines and how do buses work are they a separate zone and do streetcars cost more to use becuse they are a higher class then busses? People on here seem to think that they have all the answers with their suggestions maybe we should actually wait and see what the transit agencies figure out on their own.

 

[rbt]

I don't see why Toronto needs to bow down to the will of Metrolinx and everyone else and change our fare system because they don't like it.

Agreed. However, there is an obvious case for implementation of a TTC zoned-fare (which is what GO uses) across certain points on the TTC network at Steeles on the Spadina line and Yonge line if that extension gets funded.

Interestingly, once Presto is setup and TTC requires taps at all transfers, GO can offer a co-fare for TTC local bus service only (not subway, LRT, or express bus services). This would match pretty well with the 905 offering under the same logic (reduced parking requirements for inbound trips) without giving away the cake at Union.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Agreed. However, there is an obvious case for implementation of a TTC zoned-fare (which is what GO uses) across certain points on the TTC network at Steeles on the Spadina line and Yonge line if that extension gets funded.

Interestingly, once Presto is setup and TTC requires taps at all transfers, GO can offer a co-fare for TTC local bus service only (not subway, LRT, or express bus services). This would match pretty well with the 905 offering under the same logic (reduced parking requirements for inbound trips) without giving away the cake at Union.

I think we will only ever see co fares with the TTC if there is a benefit to them. I saw somewhere that with the GTA pass that gets sold the TTC gets like 53 percent of the money from it and the others share what's left after wards. I just don't really see that there is a need for it, if you look at ridership numbers most people that use the TTC are in Toronto. Yes there are some that use it from outside Toronto that connect to it but they are still the minority of users of it.

 

[rbt]

I think we will only ever see co fares with the TTC if there is a benefit to them.

The benefit to the TTC, if given the same revenue sharing agreement as 905 agencies, is that TTC earns 100% of the fare they would normally charge and GO eats the difference. That's why I suggested the fare-discount for TTC local bus service only and that would be almost entirely feeder routes into GO stations so GO can use the parking cost savings argument (as they do for the 905) to justify the program.

What Presto displays to the customer as a discounted local transit trip is in-fact a discounted GO trip and a full-price local transit trip.

 

[Palma]

I'm just curious if multi-Zone systems are so good for public Transit why is Andy Byford who used to work for the London underground against it? If Toronto does go back to a zone system where do you draw the lines and how do buses work are they a separate zone and do streetcars cost more to use becuse they are a higher class then busses? People on here seem to think that they have all the answers with their suggestions maybe we should actually wait and see what the transit agencies figure out on their own.

I myself always wonder why Byford is against multi-zone systems especially as they have it in London. Perhaps its too complicated to get it started! I have no idea

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I myself always wonder why Byford is against multi-zone systems especially as they have it in London. Perhaps its too complicated to get it started! I have no idea

I think that's a big thing plus you have people not really understanding how it works like for example one complaint I've heard about London is that if cross through more than one zone even if the tube stops you get on and off at are in the same zone you have to pay for all the zones you crossed. That's fine if you just buy a ticket but using a fare card that can get messy if you don't know about that in advance or don't have enough money on your card.

Sometimes this stuff makes me think of a quote from Douglas Adams in the Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy Trilogy in five parts" The Universe is an insanely complicated thing if anyone figures it out it will be replaced by something even more complex. Some say this has already happened"

 

[kEiThZ]

Metrolinx wants to be the shark in the pond, not the bigger fish. They want everyone to use their precious pet project so they use the Ontario government to issue there's so they can fore it on them. Metrolinx and the Ontario government keep trying to force their own agenda on the TTC all the time, for example, the TTC pans an extension to York Universty and asks for fund Onatior stwpo in and ssays ected iot into Vaughn with no plans wahtsoever in palce on how to deal with the difrent fare between the two regions. Right now as I see it Fare integration is a pipe dream of people seem to be sold on. Like I said maybe it will happen but it's something that needs to be negotiated not forced with threats of funding by the government.

Beggars can't be choosers. If the TTC wants provincial dollars, they'll live with Metrolinx's conditions. Don't like it? Fund it all on the backs of Toronto ratepayers.

 

[cplchanb]

Beggars can't be choosers. If the TTC wants provincial dollars, they'll live with Metrolinx's conditions. Don't like it? Fund it all on the backs of Toronto ratepayers.

agreed. TTC at this moment has no leverage politically and financially when it comes to funding. They know that they are bleeding money for projects and that sooner or later they need to
relax their stance on market share or risk alienation from the rest of the gta. Then again im not sure how much they actually that the above to heart because it seems that theyre still being partisan (and ml) at the expense of the riders and taxpayers

 

[muller877]

I think that's a big thing plus you have people not really understanding how it works like for example one complaint I've heard about London is that if cross through more than one zone even if the tube stops you get on and off at are in the same zone you have to pay for all the zones you crossed. That's fine if you just buy a ticket but using a fare card that can get messy if you don't know about that in advance or don't have enough money on your card.

Sometimes this stuff makes me think of a quote from Douglas Adams in the Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy Trilogy in five parts" The Universe is an insanely complicated thing if anyone figures it out it will be replaced by something even more complex. Some say this has already happened"

The insane thing in Toronto is that I have to pay the same fare to get my groceries home from the local supermarket as the person travelling 45km across town. 45km for $3!!! That's the same distance as travelling from Union in Toronto, across Mississauga, across Oakville and ending at Appleby station. Do you see any issues here? Other than a dotted line on a map?

Almost every newer subway around the world has fare by distance or zone. It's not rocket science. It's not complex. And if you are paying by cash most places have a touch screen visualization.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The insane thing in Toronto is that I have to pay the same fare to get my groceries home from the local supermarket as the person travelling 45km across town. 45km for $3!!! That's the same distance as travelling from Union in Toronto, across Mississauga, across Oakville and ending at Appleby station. Do you see any issues here? Other than a dotted line on a map?

Almost every newer subway around the world has fare by distance or zone. It's not rocket science. It's not complex. And if you are paying by cash most places have a touch screen visualization.

Let's not oversold that $3 - you pay for it in another way through trip time.

AoD

 

[ShonTron]

A two-hour transfer would be one way benefit passengers making short trips in a flat-fare local transit system.

 

[amnesiajune]

Almost every newer subway around the world has fare by distance or zone. It's not rocket science. It's not complex. And if you are paying by cash most places have a touch screen visualization.

Let's not oversold that $3 - you pay for it in another way through trip time.

Almost every major subway in the world has a zone-based fare system (I don't think there's any system based on distance - fare zones are just a way of approximating the distances), but it's rare for local buses to use zone-based fares because that penalizes long trips, which is undesirable because (like AoD pointed out) nobody would willfully extend their trip by 30+ minutes to save a dollar or two. If you're making a long trip on local buses/streetcars, it's generally because you have no other choice - you don't have the means to drive and you don't have a rapid transit option.

 

[cplchanb]

A two-hour transfer would be one way benefit passengers making short trips in a flat-fare local transit system.

I think we can all agree that local transit (bus) can remain at a flat fare. However higher order transit must be fare by distance to keep it economically viable and reasonable. The only tricky thing would be LRT. Does that constitute to higher order and fare by distance? it sits sort of in between.

 

[ShonTron]

Good questions. Since the LRTs we're building will have surface-stop style fare collection (tap on when boarding, little way to control tap-offs, unless there's a fare penalty, like GO) I can see LRTs going on the flat fare system. I'm also a little hesitant about subways too, because the Yonge and Bloor-Danforth sections were built to replace overcrowded surface routes. Unlike most cities, the subways are very integrated with our buses. Elsewhere, they run almost as separate systems.