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GTHA Transit Fare Integration

You've got to be kidding me. I use one of these busy stations on a daily basis and the main delay is caused by the turnstyle (slow), people having to route themselves through the very limited number of turnstyles and the stupid way they allow both in and egress through the same turnstyles (you go, you go first). Waiting for people to take out their Presto card is almost a non-issue relative to these.
Many people seem to be going through the open gate with the attendant. That's the problem.

The buses will need to be Presto equipped in any case, and really it isn't that much trouble to install standup Presto terminals at entrance/exits (and additional spaces like the soon to be obsolete transfer printers).
There's no transfer machines between the bus platforms and the subway platforms. Where at Woodbine or Pape for example would you put the farelines between the bus platforms and subway platforms, for those getting off the bus? With 50 people getting off the bus at once, you need several machines.
 
Many people seem to be going through the open gate with the attendant. That's the problem.

Because it is the path of least resistance, relative to turnstyles, and not because it is fast per se - and I highly doubt that it isn't something that can be dealt with by having the increased faregate throughput.

There's no transfer machines between the bus platforms and the subway platforms. Where at Woodbine or Pape for example would you put the farelines between the bus platforms and subway platforms, for those getting off the bus? With 50 people getting off the bus at once, you need several machines.

Acc_Alt_Pape_1.jpg

(TTC.ca)

Let's not overdo this space issue - it isn't even one of the particularly crammed ones. Finding places to put the terminals is probably least of the worry.

AoD
 
So, I'm just going to give my 2 cents on the whole fare integration scheme:

What exactly is Metrolinx trying to accomplish with the fare by distance? In general, eliminating cross-subsidies is a good thing if it is able to influence behaviour and consequently reduce costs. For example, airlines charging for luggage. By charging for luggage, they are able to charge less for the people who don't have luggage and maintain the same profit margins. But by adding a penalty for those who bring luggage, fliers respond to the economic disincentive by bringing less luggage, which reduces fuel consumption and the amount of baggage handling required, resulting in a cost reduction. Thus airlines are able to reduce the average cost of fares (because their costs are lesser).

With fare by distance, are we really incentivizing shorter trips? People take public transit to get from A to B, so unless people are being priced out of taking public transit altogether (switching to bikes or cars) the amount of vehicle kilometers should be fairly inelastic with respect to price. The only way that this would reduce vehicle kilometers is if people respond to the increased price by moving closer to their destinations, which is unlikely given the overhead involved.

Instead of costing with respect to distance traveled, transit agencies would be much better served by charging with respect to time of day. Peak hour demand is what determines fleet size and required capacity of the system, and concomitantly the maintenance and capital costs of the system. The marginal cost of adding off-peak demand is fractions of what it costs to add to peak demand, since there is no required increase in fleet/staffing. Wouldn't it then be more effective to incentivize the shifting of demand from peak to off peak? People are unlikely to change residence to save a small amount of money monthly, but if their hours are flexible they may be willing to wake up early/work late regularly to save money.

Adding the capability to track distance traveled is complicated and requires expensive capacity-reducing fare gates to stations that were never designed for them, and introduces demand for parallel bus service when people would be better served travelling on the higher capacity modes. Charging by time of day is easy to implement, and Presto is already capable of performing this.
 
One option is to do what most of Europe does and get rid of faregates/turnstiles entirely. Then it's easy to find enough space to put tap in/tap out machines. Of course, this is predicated on proof of payment enforcement having some teeth. In Germany, for example, the fine isn't too bad the first time you're caught, but it escalates significantly and possibly includes jail time or community service past a certain point.
 
So, I'm just going to give my 2 cents on the whole fare integration scheme:

What exactly is Metrolinx trying to accomplish with the fare by distance? In general, eliminating cross-subsidies is a good thing if it is able to influence behaviour and consequently reduce costs. For example, airlines charging for luggage. By charging for luggage, they are able to charge less for the people who don't have luggage and maintain the same profit margins. But by adding a penalty for those who bring luggage, fliers respond to the economic disincentive by bringing less luggage, which reduces fuel consumption and the amount of baggage handling required, resulting in a cost reduction. Thus airlines are able to reduce the average cost of fares (because their costs are lesser).

With fare by distance, are we really incentivizing shorter trips? People take public transit to get from A to B, so unless people are being priced out of taking public transit altogether (switching to bikes or cars) the amount of vehicle kilometers should be fairly inelastic with respect to price. The only way that this would reduce vehicle kilometers is if people respond to the increased price by moving closer to their destinations, which is unlikely given the overhead involved.

Instead of costing with respect to distance traveled, transit agencies would be much better served by charging with respect to time of day. Peak hour demand is what determines fleet size and required capacity of the system, and concomitantly the maintenance and capital costs of the system. The marginal cost of adding off-peak demand is fractions of what it costs to add to peak demand, since there is no required increase in fleet/staffing. Wouldn't it then be more effective to incentivize the shifting of demand from peak to off peak? People are unlikely to change residence to save a small amount of money monthly, but if their hours are flexible they may be willing to wake up early/work late regularly to save money.

Adding the capability to track distance traveled is complicated and requires expensive capacity-reducing fare gates to stations that were never designed for them, and introduces demand for parallel bus service when people would be better served travelling on the higher capacity modes. Charging by time of day is easy to implement, and Presto is already capable of performing this.

I think there's a huge chunk of people that actually take the long route to get from point A to B because of the lack of integration. People who should be taking transit to a subway station or GO station will often skip the transit leg to the GO or subway because of a double fare that unfairly punishes them for wanting to take a "short" route to the station. Fare integration will flesh out the system so that people can ACTUALLY use the fastest means to get from point A to B at a reasonable cost while crossing borders, which is basically cost prohibitive currently.
 
Someone can take the bus from Scarborough to Etobicoke and pay $3. Try taking the bus 107 TTC bus from Keele and Finch to lets say Highway 7 and Finch and you have to pay $6. I know it's a going into a different city but its utterly ridiculous. It's only a distance of 4 km.
 
Someone can take the bus from Scarborough to Etobicoke and pay $3. Try taking the bus 107 TTC bus from Keele and Finch to lets say Highway 7 and Finch and you have to pay $6. I know it's a going into a different city but its utterly ridiculous. It's only a distance of 4 km.
but that is two separate trips that you are comparing...not justifying that but the point being made was that given two trip options between A and B the lack of fare integration leads a huge number of people to choose a sub-optimal (ie slower/longer) route. You compared a trip between A and B to one between C and D
 
I think there's a huge chunk of people that actually take the long route to get from point A to B because of the lack of integration. People who should be taking transit to a subway station or GO station will often skip the transit leg to the GO or subway because of a double fare that unfairly punishes them for wanting to take a "short" route to the station. Fare integration will flesh out the system so that people can ACTUALLY use the fastest means to get from point A to B at a reasonable cost while crossing borders, which is basically cost prohibitive currently.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about integration in general, I was talking about fare-by-distance specifically. Comparing fare-by-distance to time-based, flat-fares, etc.

Not having to worry about which transit provider's turf you're in is a positive of fare integration, but the hard part is figuring out a scheme that is a) simple to understand b) fairly distributes fares to the transit agency that provides the service c) is easy to collect and enforce and ideally d) has some relationship to the cost of providing the service. There are so many different ways that this could work, and they all have their own challenges and built-in subsidies.
 
I'm wondering what to look at for fare integration in North America. Having lived and traveled all over the continent I'm drawing a bit of a blank. In SF, fare integration is a mess, as is the vast number of transit agencies per unit area. I think you get a $0.25 discount transferring BART to MUNI and v/v. Chicago has no integration to my knowledge between regional rail and the CTA. I don't think Boston has much either. Any good examples of integration anywhere in N. America?
 
TTC looking at different fare systems:

http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss...ports/Presentation_Fare_Policy_Principles.pdf

Areas to analyze:



1. Cash fares and single ride options
2. Loyalty programs
3. Peak and off-peak fares
4. 2hr time-based transfers
5. Fare by distance/zone AREAS OF ANALYSIS (1/2 ) 11
6. All-door boarding on buses
7. Proof-of-Payment (POP) system wide including buses and subway
8. “Tap on” to all buses and streetcars
9. “Tap on and off” at all subway stations

Analysis with other agencies:

Low income discount – Transit Fare Equity
Co-fares – Fare integration across the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area
 
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I'm wondering what to look at for fare integration in North America. Having lived and traveled all over the continent I'm drawing a bit of a blank. In SF, fare integration is a mess, as is the vast number of transit agencies per unit area. I think you get a $0.25 discount transferring BART to MUNI and v/v. Chicago has no integration to my knowledge between regional rail and the CTA. I don't think Boston has much either. Any good examples of integration anywhere in N. America?

Montreal has the TRAM pass (TRain, Autobus, Metro), a monthly pass that covers all travel between your AMT zone and the STM. There is limited fare integration otherwise. Greater Vancouver has combined fares with the West Coast Express, but that's one commuter rail line operated by the same agency as the SkyTrain, SeaBus, buses, etc. Philadelphia has pretty good fare integration as well, but all transit, be it subway/elevated, regional rail, buses or trolleys - with the exception of PATCO and NJ Transit across the Delaware River - is operated by SEPTA.

GO Transit's fare integration with suburban transit agencies is actually very good - the trouble, of course, remains the TTC.
 
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